Gaspar, Lewwyn, et al go full Sartre

[Lewwyn]

Technically you can get the ivory without Iron Working, because camps can be built in jungles.

We're not getting there anytime soon.

[Gazglum]

4. Something Historical. Relatively speaking, I'm also a fan of this sort of a scheme. The quick thought is perhaps Battles of the Middle Ages - particularly involving the Byzantines or the Normans, since those are two historical periods I knew little about prior to recently that I've been reading/listening about in my spare time. Just doing something based on Bellisarius or Robert Guiscard could fairly easily fill a Civ.

I've just started reading through this thread, enjoying it immensely so far. Have you been listneing to the Lars Brownworth Byz/Norman podcasts? I got them off Itunes recently and had a good time exercising while listening to stories of murder and intrigue.

[Gaspar]

4. Something Historical. Relatively speaking, I'm also a fan of this sort of a scheme. The quick thought is perhaps Battles of the Middle Ages - particularly involving the Byzantines or the Normans, since those are two historical periods I knew little about prior to recently that I've been reading/listening about in my spare time. Just doing something based on Bellisarius or Robert Guiscard could fairly easily fill a Civ.

I've just started reading through this thread, enjoying it immensely so far. Have you been listneing to the Lars Brownworth Byz/Norman podcasts? I got them off Itunes recently and had a good time exercising while listening to stories of murder and intrigue.

Indeed those. I don't always share his perspective but he does an excellent job keeping the story moving in an interesting way.

[Gaspar]

With the scout dead, I haven't bothered to report the last couple turns - quite literally nothing occurred other than me mashing enter and logging out. This turn, 11, saw the birth of our first worker. I decided we could name the workers after Mythological creatures, so worker 1 gets Loch Ness Monster. In the news, and all. Anyway, LNM started farming the wheat and the capital started on a warrior.




Everyone has completed one tech, Thoth finally finishing AH this turn. We'll resume normal service of mashing enter for the next 5t, but the era of our first decision is almost upon on us, so over the next 24-48 hours we'll need to firm up the major questions of the early game...

Pottery vs Bronze Working (Almost certainly Pottery)
Size 3 vs Size 4 (Currently leaning size 3)
2nd worker vs Settler (Currently leaning Settler)

And a bonus question - 1st warrior explores home or wait for the second? And either way, where does he head? My first instinct is the area due N of the capital.

If anyone has any strongly held opinions on these choices, now is the time.

Here's the demos - I probably won't report the next couple turns unless we meet someone or someone does something noticeably interesting. Me showing you the same shot of the worker farming really isn't fascinating to anyone. Fear not, lurkers who worry that this will turn into PB16 all over again! I am quite engaged still and the turn pace has been excellent, so those farming turns will pass rather quickly.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Ok, I tried another BW first run since I did not lay cottages with the Pottery first run.




Hunting, AH, Mining, BW, Fishing (to get the chop into the WB on T42 when #3 settles), Pottery (Due T49). That is very late for Pottery, but we'll know where both horses and bronze will be and will have 4 workers and 3 cities. Not terrible, but I don't know if it is better than Pottery first. Likely not, but something to think about. I'm also wasting worker turns toward the end (T44-9) laying roads toward where maybe I think we will be settling, but we lack map info to know anything at that point.

Clam city grows EoT 46, just as it finishes the WB, and can work both on T47.

[Gaspar]

Just so everyone is up to date, I just played t14. The warrior completes @EOT, onto another warrior next turn. Are we all agreed on a little scouting of the north, or is there somewhere else you guys would rather scout?




I propose a scouting path with the pink arrows there. Commodore finished a second tech. Given Rome's Fishing/Mining start I'd guess that's Hunting and Agriculture in some order. Not that it really matters, since I don't anticipate us tangling with anyone short term nor going for any early wonders or religions, but hey - gotta talk about something.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

The scouting path looks good to me. Any thoughts on my BW post above? I'm not convinced it is any better than pottery first but it's worth a look. With this being base BTS, probably having the granary up ASAP is best with this strong capital. 6/3 settler, regrow.

[Gaspar]

The scouting path looks good to me. Any thoughts on my BW post above? I'm not convinced it is any better than pottery first but it's worth a look. With this being base BTS, probably having the granary up ASAP is best with this strong capital. 6/3 settler, regrow.

Lewwyn and I chatted about your sim and sims in general last night. Posting that is probably as relevant as any answer I can give.

Lewwyn: so what turn was that?
Gaspar: uh
most recent turn i reported was 11, I think
Lewwyn: I need to run a final sim comparison for turns 20-22 before we get there
Gaspar: theres been 2 enter turns since then i think
Lewwyn: k
I'll probably be able to do it tomorrow
Gaspar: i ran about a half-dozen sims in the past day or so
and im finding it really frustrating
Lewwyn: seriously
Gaspar: there's a lot of little one-off things
that i feel like i should be able to fix
but i just cant
Lewwyn: but in the end you can't
I know
the start almost always ends up in the same place
Gaspar: i mean the most obvious one is the warriors for growth, thats intensely frustrating
but the worker actions are kind like that too
yeah
Lewwyn: you're always just about the same
its like it doesn't' matter wht you do
XD
Gaspar: yeah, pretty much
Lewwyn: the biggest thing is probably the 12 C vs 12F and 2 h
Gaspar: yeah
i mean t17 is the first decision point, but its not really a decision point since we're pretty well locked on pottery
Lewwyn: yeah
Gaspar: but when ah comes in we might see horse and that might change the dotmap
Lewwyn: boldy's latest sim change your mind at all?
its really ended up about the same again for me
Gaspar: yeah
the thing is
for BW to be better than pottery
it has to be faster somewhere
Lewwyn:XD
itrs not
even though you think, oh yeah chops
but
Gaspar: because otherwise, in a vacuum, you'd rather have the ability to build granaries and burn extra worker turns on cottages rather than useless roads
Lewwyn: we don't get BW until like 35 anyway!
Gaspar: yeah
thats really the thing
whats really the difference between 35 and 44 or whatever
not much, imo
Lewwyn: the only thing I could think is if you don't go AH
Gaspar: yeah
Lewwyn: but then you're out a food yield
Gaspar: if we had decided to like
build a 2nd worker and a settler at size 2
you could have done mining > bw > ah
but really
you cant leave food unimproved that long
Lewwyn: well still hunting
Gaspar: yeah, hunting first always
Lewwyn: yeah the whole thing is a bit frustrating
Gaspar: yep
Lewwyn: I'll think a bit about the 12f,2h and 12 c
but I think the answer is 12f
Gaspar: yeah
i feel like there's gotta be a way to get the fucking road built and not lose food
but there isnt
Lewwyn: THERE ISNT! gah
Gaspar: everyday
i say im gonna sim for like 3 hrs
til i figure it out
then i do it for 45 mins
get nowhere and want to punch something
Lewwyn: I did it for 3 hours
and you saw the best I got

The thing is re: BW is what I said above. For it to be better than Pottery it has to be faster somewhere and it just isn't. If we had taken a Mining civ OR had decided to delay AH, then you can probably get it early enough that it speeds the curve sufficiently. But once you take a Ag/Wheel and research AH, you're pretty well locked into Pottery I think. Ultimately I'd rather have my workers burning turns on cottages than on clear cutting everything in sight and building mines. I'm a bigger fan of mines than most, but I think you need cottages first, especially at the capital and maybe one or two other early cities.

I think the sims have been flying past each other a bit as well. I've not posted mine because I don't like any of them but they're similar but slightly worse than the ones you guys have been posting. But I think we have to pick a path in the next day or two and then maybe we all give our best shot at optimizing it. The first two decision points are after AH comes in (tech, which is almost certainly Pottery) and after the second warrior finishes (what to do with overflow/what size to do we stop growth at/do we do worker or settler?) I think right now the moderate consensus is size 3 settler before worker. If anyone has a strong opinion on one of the alternatives, we have about 3-4t to adopt a different course. I'd like to settle on whatever course in the next 24 hours though, so we can go about optimizing the builds/tile assignments/worker actions.

(Please do object if anyone disagrees - don't get the impression I'm decided, I'm not. Frustrated, but not decided.)

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

I say we flip a coin, then heads or tails go with Pottery regardless and throw the damned sandboxes out the window and go drink some beer for a few days. Then come back nice and refreshed and have another look.

But really, I think we've squeezed about as much blood out of this turnip as we are likely to. Three hours for both of you guys and probably a good two for me and we are close to where we started with Lewwyn's opening set. The only part of this I feel strongly about is taking the food over the commerce and not finishing the road network.

What is the furthest ahead you have played? I know that where we get horses will/may change a lot of micro, bit for a hammers to hammers comparison, what turn are you able to get the third city settled opening with Pottery? These options are close enough that this could be the determining factor.

[Gaspar]

I say we flip a coin, then heads or tails go with Pottery regardless and throw the damned sandboxes out the window and go drink some beer for a few days. Then come back nice and refreshed and have another look.

But really, I think we've squeezed about as much blood out of this turnip as we are likely to. Three hours for both of you guys and probably a good two for me and we are close to where we started with Lewwyn's opening set. The only part of this I feel strongly about is taking the food over the commerce and not finishing the road network.

What is the furthest ahead you have played? I know that where we get horses will/may change a lot of micro, bit for a hammers to hammers comparison, what turn are you able to get the third city settled opening with Pottery? These options are close enough that this could be the determining factor.

I usually bail on the sim shortly after the second city is settled simply because without being dead certain where we're putting city 3, its hard to rationalize the timesink. I've played ahead long enough to see when we got BW, but I wasn't really playing seriously at that point. Maybe Lewwyn has?