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Trying to come up with some formulas...
So, when rolling a hero, each hero has an equal chance, the best way to influence that is to introduce a "reroll chance".
Reroll Chance = 100-25*(Fame/FameRequired)%, or 0% if fame 0 hero.
This would result in the following distribution of results (number of heroes in each tier for each 1 hero in the highest tier), assuming tiers with the current hero quantities in them (10,5,5,5,9) and a new fame requirement of (10,20,40,100).
Code: 10 Fame :1.0 tier 2, 8.0 tier 1
15 Fame :1.0 tier 2, 5.3 tier 1
20 Fame :1.0 tier 3, 2.0 tier 2, 8.0 tier 1
25 Fame :1.0 tier 3, 2.0 tier 2, 6.4 tier 1
30 Fame :1.0 tier 3, 2.0 tier 2, 5.3 tier 1
35 Fame :1.0 tier 3, 2.0 tier 2, 4.6 tier 1
40 Fame :1.0 tier 4, 2.0 tier 3, 4.0 tier 2, 8.0 tier 1
45 Fame :1.0 tier 4, 2.0 tier 3, 3.6 tier 2, 7.1 tier 1
50 Fame :1.0 tier 4, 2.0 tier 3, 3.2 tier 2, 6.4 tier 1
55 Fame :1.0 tier 4, 2.0 tier 3, 2.9 tier 2, 5.8 tier 1
60 Fame :1.0 tier 4, 2.0 tier 3, 2.7 tier 2, 5.3 tier 1
65 Fame :1.0 tier 4, 2.0 tier 3, 2.5 tier 2, 4.9 tier 1
70 Fame :1.0 tier 4, 2.0 tier 3, 2.3 tier 2, 4.6 tier 1
75 Fame :1.0 tier 4, 2.0 tier 3, 2.1 tier 2, 4.3 tier 1
80 Fame :1.0 tier 4, 2.0 tier 3, 2.0 tier 2, 4.0 tier 1
85 Fame :1.0 tier 4, 1.9 tier 3, 1.9 tier 2, 3.8 tier 1
90 Fame :1.0 tier 4, 1.8 tier 3, 1.8 tier 2, 3.6 tier 1
95 Fame :1.0 tier 4, 1.7 tier 3, 1.7 tier 2, 3.4 tier 1
100 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.4 tier 4, 2.2 tier 3, 2.2 tier 2, 4.4 tier 1
105 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.4 tier 4, 2.1 tier 3, 2.1 tier 2, 4.2 tier 1
110 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.4 tier 4, 2.0 tier 3, 2.0 tier 2, 4.0 tier 1
115 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.4 tier 4, 1.9 tier 3, 1.9 tier 2, 3.9 tier 1
120 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.4 tier 4, 1.9 tier 3, 1.9 tier 2, 3.7 tier 1
125 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.4 tier 4, 1.8 tier 3, 1.8 tier 2, 3.6 tier 1
130 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.4 tier 4, 1.7 tier 3, 1.7 tier 2, 3.4 tier 1
135 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.4 tier 4, 1.6 tier 3, 1.6 tier 2, 3.3 tier 1
140 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.4 tier 4, 1.6 tier 3, 1.6 tier 2, 3.2 tier 1
145 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.4 tier 4, 1.5 tier 3, 1.5 tier 2, 3.1 tier 1
150 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.4 tier 4, 1.5 tier 3, 1.5 tier 2, 3.0 tier 1
155 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.4 tier 4, 1.4 tier 3, 1.4 tier 2, 2.9 tier 1
160 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.4 tier 4, 1.4 tier 3, 1.4 tier 2, 2.8 tier 1
165 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.3 tier 4, 1.3 tier 3, 1.3 tier 2, 2.7 tier 1
170 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.3 tier 4, 1.3 tier 3, 1.3 tier 2, 2.6 tier 1
175 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.3 tier 4, 1.3 tier 3, 1.3 tier 2, 2.5 tier 1
180 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.2 tier 4, 1.2 tier 3, 1.2 tier 2, 2.5 tier 1
185 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.2 tier 4, 1.2 tier 3, 1.2 tier 2, 2.4 tier 1
190 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.2 tier 4, 1.2 tier 3, 1.2 tier 2, 2.3 tier 1
195 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.1 tier 4, 1.1 tier 3, 1.1 tier 2, 2.3 tier 1
200 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.1 tier 4, 1.1 tier 3, 1.1 tier 2, 2.2 tier 1
205 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.1 tier 4, 1.1 tier 3, 1.1 tier 2, 2.2 tier 1
210 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.1 tier 4, 1.1 tier 3, 1.1 tier 2, 2.1 tier 1
215 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.0 tier 4, 1.0 tier 3, 1.0 tier 2, 2.1 tier 1
220 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.0 tier 4, 1.0 tier 3, 1.0 tier 2, 2.0 tier 1
225 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.0 tier 4, 1.0 tier 3, 1.0 tier 2, 2.0 tier 1
230 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 1.0 tier 4, 1.0 tier 3, 1.0 tier 2, 1.9 tier 1
235 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 0.9 tier 4, 0.9 tier 3, 0.9 tier 2, 1.9 tier 1
240 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 0.9 tier 4, 0.9 tier 3, 0.9 tier 2, 1.9 tier 1
245 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 0.9 tier 4, 0.9 tier 3, 0.9 tier 2, 1.8 tier 1
250 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 0.9 tier 4, 0.9 tier 3, 0.9 tier 2, 1.8 tier 1
255 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 0.9 tier 4, 0.9 tier 3, 0.9 tier 2, 1.7 tier 1
260 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 0.9 tier 4, 0.9 tier 3, 0.9 tier 2, 1.7 tier 1
265 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 0.8 tier 4, 0.8 tier 3, 0.8 tier 2, 1.7 tier 1
270 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 0.8 tier 4, 0.8 tier 3, 0.8 tier 2, 1.6 tier 1
275 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 0.8 tier 4, 0.8 tier 3, 0.8 tier 2, 1.6 tier 1
280 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 0.8 tier 4, 0.8 tier 3, 0.8 tier 2, 1.6 tier 1
285 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 0.8 tier 4, 0.8 tier 3, 0.8 tier 2, 1.6 tier 1
290 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 0.8 tier 4, 0.8 tier 3, 0.8 tier 2, 1.5 tier 1
295 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 0.8 tier 4, 0.8 tier 3, 0.8 tier 2, 1.5 tier 1
300 Fame :1.0 tier 5, 0.7 tier 4, 0.7 tier 3, 0.7 tier 2, 1.5 tier 1
Quote:I'm not sure famous should be a 50% increase. It's supposed to be increase in quality. 50% more heroes as well makes it sound mandatory to me. I'd say 25%.
Ok, I have no problems with that. Assuming we do go with the above reroll system, +10 fame is a pretty decent increase in quality (3 vs 8 at 20 fame but 3 vs 5 at 30 fame for a nonzero fame hero) but we can even push that further and make it have a direct impact in the reroll formula.
Like this :
Reroll Chance = 100-25*(Fame/FameRequired)-10 if famous%, or 0% if fame 0 hero.
Quote:My point about cheap summon hero is that with 2 +2 items, that hero isn't an uncommon summon anymore. It's a rare summon. If it's cheap enough, like 150, you summon the hero, add the item, now it's as powerful as a rare, and you don't care if it dies. And if you win, you keep the items and can summon a new 'rare' unit.
Yeah. But "if you win" and "if the hero wasn't killed by irrecoverable damage". And you can only have one such unit at a time (assuming you have one set of items that powerful.).
Also, this isn't Resurrection, the new hero doesn't come with levels.
If having good artifacts still doesn't make it better to summon a hero to use them than summoning an uncommon then what's the point of the artifacts and summon hero?
It's a bit different if you are playing a hero strategy but then you'll use resurrection instead of summon hero, as you want to keep the levels...
Resurrection costs 325 now and you get to pick the hero and keep all experience. Getting a new hero, randomly, without experience, should be worth less than half of that...
July 17th, 2018, 12:13
(This post was last modified: July 17th, 2018, 12:16 by teelaurila.)
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-Does land size affect fame production roughly linearly?
Can't say, never play anything but fair.
-How many heroes do we want per turn to show up when there are no used slots yet?
I'll go on a limb and say something like 5 turns per hero. But perhaps with a doubling (instead of ~1.5) after every slot used to keep other hero appearances relevant.
-How much weighting do we want on random hero offers?
This is a more involved one. Your idea sounds as good as any I could cook,
-How much do we want the hiring chance to decrease when there are already used slots?
As said, would prefer to this go up along with the chance at 0 slots used. Would make summon obviously relevant for hero focus, but allow a couple heroes to anyone with just saving gold.
-How much do we want Famous to increase hiring chance?
Never played famous so hard to say. When I found it in treasure, felt minor.
-How much do we want Fame to increase hiring chance?
I'd say none at all, it should increase hero quality, not amount.
Agreed, makes it simpler.
-How much "effective" fame we want heroes to cost?
Probably about 80 for champions? 40/20/10 for the other tiers? So double the current?
Sounds good. If also possible to weigh chances by fame, I'd say hero weight starts at something like 0.2 at the limiting fame, reaching a cap of 1 at double the limit. So 160 fame would be the max that affects heroes. Fame should probably not affect summoning. (suppose I cooked up a weighing thing anyway, which seems pretty much along what you suggested.)
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In standard play, you get a hero, you give it items, and it becomes the focus of that stack. The stack is there to support the hero, so that the hero can be devastating.
What I'm talking about is reversing that. Imagine a stack that has a bunch of shadow demons (or other highly difficult to kill units, but whose offensive punch isn't all that strong).
Now we add a hero to that - any random hero. We give that hero 2 items, +4 attack, +2 armor/resist each. That hero now has stats worthy of a rare creature, but literally, I don't care what the hero is. The items can be used by almost any hero.
So I could summon another uncommon unit, or I can summon a hero.
With those items and that stack, the hero is only there to kill things - it doesn't need to survive. I can summon literally any hero and get the same affect, and the stack won't die, so I won't lose the items (in most cases).
Anyway, you clearly don't see it as an issue, but we've always seen heroes wldly differently.
I'd ask you don't reduce summon hero below 200.!
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Casters are probably worse for this. Give them +60 skill, let them cast high prayer or call lightning or whatever, then die.
Win the combat, take back the items, summon a new hero who has more impact than any rare unit.
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If summon hero stays above 200 we'll still never use it. (outside of dedicated hero strategies)
I fail to see how the unit you describe is a rare creature though.
The hero comes at about 10 attack, 8 defense, 6 resistance and about 12 hp. Add the items you describe and you get 18 attack, 12 defense and 10 resistance. That's about a Fire Giant with better defense but fewer hit points.
...a rare creature would have 20-25 attack, +2 to hit, and ~25 hp usually with some ability (armor piercing, immunity to something, a touch attack, etc).
So you'd need to have a +2 To hit weapon at least, +10 attack power, 4 resistance, and about 4 defense plus at least one or two special abilities to be on par with a rare creature.
Are you sure you aren't also including the cost of Heroism and warlord in the effect for free?
Either way, since the enemy will likely target the hero first, it's as good as its defense and health. Heroes have health worse than an uncommon summon, albeit they can have (much) better defense. Ultimately, no matter how good their attack strength is, they die too quickly to matter, unless you can heal them. (but then you aren't aiming for "disposable" heroes anyway)
I kinda don't see this whole "disposable heroes" thing working. Either you can keep them alive for a relevant time and then you want to not lose them at all, or not and then they won't be doing all that much damage (probably they get to live long enough to strike at enemy units 1-4 times at best.) - plus the AI will either target or not target the hero depending on how much damage they can do to it. So if you can raise their defense enough to be relevant, they won't be working as a "decoy" to protect your other units. If you can't, they die and aren't relevant. (No, being able to reach and double KO with the enemy Fire Giant I don't call relevant enough, considering it's only worth 150 and the AI gets a discount on it...)
If you have a good enough item set for the AI to avoid targeting the hero then you have a near unstoppable hero but then you aren't recasting the Summon hero spell.
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I guess the fundamental problem with Summon Hero isn't only the cost.
It's just unnecessary. If you aren't playing a hero strategy, but found a great artifact that enables using heroes anyway, well, you probably already hired at least one hero who can equip it, and one is all you can use. Getting a better one isn't important enough to use the spell repeatedly instead of focusing on your main strategy.
If you are playing a hero strategy, you are using Summon Hero already (unless you had really good luck on hero offers and prisoners) regardless of cost - you just can't really afford refusing bad heroes too much. But there aren't really that many bad heroes for a hero strategy to begin with... (not counting Chaos heroes which pretty much aren't playable unless you have a Soul Linker.)
I think we should go with a compromise here and make the cost 180.
Also we should buff Legendary if we do the other changes we talked about, as fame will be less effective at raising the tier of heroes found. (which is the primary reason why you'd want a Legendary hero)
It should probably grow to +5 Fame/level from the current +3 at the very least.
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Isn't Fame also worth 1 gp each for upkeep? So it sure beats noble at gold generation really fast. Still, it's not much compared to sage/ritual/aether.
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I can agree with 180 and +5.
Teelaurila, yes. This should probably match ritual master, so +6.
Also the one reason summon hero is amazing is for the Wind Mage. Windwalking on a hero with movement items is absurdly powerful. I have definitely played games where I spent 3000+ casting skill just to get him.
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btw with increased Fame requirements, Just Cause and Famous will be less effective at unlocking higher tiers.
You'd no longer get the tier 4 heroes if you start with both (Ninja, Magician, Amazon, Warlock, Unknown) and you'd no longer get tier 3 if you only have one of them (Wind Mage, Ranger, Draconian, Witch, Golden One).
This will definitely make early hero strategies weaker, and Summon Hero/Colosseums more relevant for them I guess.
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These are the final version of the formulas as implemented :
Fame requirement >0
Reroll chance = 1-(Fame/Fame Requirement)/3
Fame requirement=0
Reroll chance = 0+0.5 if Famous.
Chance to hire hero :
1/X where X is 6, 12, 36, 48, 60 or 90 depending on the taken slot count. X is halved for AI like with the old formula.
Chance for mercenary (unchanged) : (Fame/12+1)%, multiplied by 4 if Famous, capped at 20. For AI, add 10% after capping.
So Famous wizards get maximal hiring chance at 48, non-Famous at 228 fame, which is 20%.
Chance for item (unchanged) : (Fame/25+2)%, double if famous, capped at 10%. No AI bonus here, but they pay half the normal amount of gold for them (but still require the whole amount to be available).
So Famous gets max item chance of 10% at 75 fame, non-Famous gets it at 200 fame.
Unsure about this one, while fame increases chance, the later the game is, the more gold the player has, so the offers will contain increasingly better items as well. At one item every 10th turn and a full treasury, there is a fairly high chance of getting at least one top tier artifact out of this per game, or even a full set. (It costs a ton of gold though, like 5k for each item)
I don't even know if we have any particular goal or intended role for buying items?
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