Whoa, missed the plains FP by only looking at the complete map picture. That provably changes things a lot. Does that start need Cha, just in order to do anything with all the food besides churning out workers and settlers with oh so limited use?
Firstly, early war is a big weak spot for me, so I am expecting to learn a lot from this thread. As for contributing, we'll see...
Anyway, the topic at hand. I am assuming the extra floodplains for SW is a mistake, because that seems like a massive advantage. But I still like that start best:
the second city is strong and relatively defensible if you settle 1SE of the NE fish. Backline forest to chop nearly immediately.
Similarly get a great city near the gold.
Room for 5 cities, at least.
So I would also be inclined to pick start first and take that start. It does depend a little bit on what we want to pick. My responses to what you said:
(October 14th, 2022, 06:41)Miguelito Wrote:
(October 13th, 2022, 14:26)Tarkeel Wrote: Final map:
Northeast:
Southeast:
Southwest:
Northwest:
NE sticks out as the only one with Hunting instead of grain. SW can improve the wheat a turn earlier than the others.
It's all very flat, NW seems to be the only start that could plausibly get a hill border city SW of the fur. That might make it the most favourable in my opinion.
- for civ pick, founding on copper makes wheel kinda bad. Have to evaluate if one needs a mining start to avoid getting axe choked.
- what do we do to avoid the scout choke? Sit on grain with our own scout?
- for trait, Agg is certainly high on the list, in particular when facing other Aggs. Pro's economy bonus is going to remain relevant all game, and the combat bonus is more important than normal, although archers suffer from the lack of hills. It feels like something should be doable with Phi, but I don't know what yet. Imp may be relevant at only one point in the game to get a crucial border city first, but that might decide a game. Lukewarm on Cha, 2 early luxes are more or less guaranteed.
Could also make a Cornflakesian approach and pick Nebuchadnezzar because
- culture bombs like holy cities, SH, Oracle etc are very strong here. In general, key wonders might be more key than normal, if the game is to be won not by heaps of axes but rather gaining a tech edge.
- can someone explain to me in simple words why dog soldiers are considered bad? Sure they have trouble attacking a city, but in open field battle they should do excellently against their contemporaries, or not? I was entertaining Toku or even Churchill of NA, although I'm having second thoughts now considering the lack of hills.
Interesting point about the Wheel, I hadn't considered that. Although I think it's a very good starting tech normally.
That's probably a good idea with the scout. It's not like we need to explore our surroundings anyway.
I think AGG is the best trait here, as all aspects of it will be relevant. I think PRO sucks, because the commerce bonus will likely get outscaled by AGG very quickly anyway. I really like PHI, probably as competing with AGG, because I think an Academy will be massive here. IMP is great if we go for the SW start, I think, because that one is all about claiming your good cities ASAP. Otherwise, I'm not super sold (though I may be wrong! I dislike IMP in general more than most good players). CHA seems decent but not exciting, agreed with you there.
Not sold on Nebuchadnezzar, I don't think. Too easy to get whacked out of the game before it matters. But I don't really know, early war is a weak spot for me.
Charriu answered the dog soldier thing. I think they could be decent here, if unexciting. Very defensive, which could be viable if our goal is to choose SW and settle everything quickly. But the catapult thing is a problem.
Picks
(October 14th, 2022, 15:42)Miguelito Wrote: Yeah, that's what I thought, and also what seems like the design intent, but still people say they're bad, and I don't quite understand it. For chariots you need spears anyways. Once thing where they might really look bad is against cats. a pure axe attack of equal hammer value can stop axes/ cats ion defense, but dogs lose against the cats. And that might become a very real issue ion ethos game.
Essential techs here are Agri/ mining/ hunting/ fishing. Ideally we want two of them, need to have a strong argument to drop onein favour of wheel. Agri/ hunting also counts as just one. admittedly I haven't looked up tech costs , on the small map it might be easy to get everything quickly; fast BW is still critical.
Techs with two of the respects are: America Dutch
NA (fishing/hunting in CtH!) China
Greece
Vikings England Khmer Russia Germany Carthage Portugal Rome
Struck out are those that I find implausible, plus Rome, already picked by Thoth. Additionally, I would consider, for uniques, Japan (Stalin), Egypt, and Zulu.
Of these, only 2 have Agri, while 4 have Hunting, which would require the NE start.
Atm I like the Stalin of Japan however as the cutest. but I don't even know if those techs are viable even.
Not sold on NA for the catapult reason. My guess would be that this game ends with big catapult pushes, or at least sees them. But I don't hate it if you really want to try.
I think Greece will be nothing special. I like hoplites vs. knights, and this game probably won't get there.
Vikings are fine but unexciting.
I don't like Egypt too much. Seems like a recipe for ruining your game and someone else's. But I historically undervalue and underbuild chariots, so take that with a grain of salt.
Love Zulu normally, not sure about this game. I think Ikhandas will be nice here, and Impis are always good. I hate the start techs generally, especially in a world where horses aren't in a great spot, and we have no other animals. That could invalidate the pick.
Japan is... interesting. I don't know if it's good, but it would be fun! Stalin of Japan is actually one of the picks I want to try if I play another game at RB, for the stupid synergy.
In general, I agree that this game will be won by land-claiming and/or teching, rather than an early rush. So I'm disinclined from the rush civs.
Most of my thoughts are with the SW start in mind, because to me it looks the best. NA could be interesting with the NE start. Japan could be a lot of fun with the SW one. And finally, your point about Mining being necessary (potentially) is interesting too. Maybe? We'd need to sim to find out, I guess. You're right that it makes The Wheel a much worse tech here than normal, because we'd need to research Agriculture as well. But I do find that silliness synergy very appealing....
On that note - how about Pericles of America? Very uninspiring, but you start with correct double food techs so you can go straight into BW, and you definitely win the long game if there's a stalemate. I am always tempted by the picks that win long-term, because it takes the pressure to Do Something Now away. But here, it could be very strong. Again, could also be fairly boring. (This pick didn't occur to me while at Yuris', so feel fine mentioning here).
(October 14th, 2022, 17:42)Miguelito Wrote: some more on starts:
- NE can build a city SW of the plains deer that either needs Cre or a quickly chopped wonder; up to 4 forests are available if we're willing to chop the deer. That's enough for Stonehenge with Ind, which would swamp a pretty big part of the map with culture. The bottleneck I think would be worker labour, so that's rather a plan for 3rd city. I see no other start with a similar 4 or even 3 forest central forward city.
- however I don't really see a satisfying 2nd city for NE, maybe E of furs, but that's not great either.
- An easier culture bomb would be a holy city, but I don't like any of the Myst civs. Maybe Inca for the 45h granary and C1 quechua (even if not Agg) - although all grain is already irrigated? India doesn't make much sense, and Maya is nixed by map.
- NE is also unique in that its gold is fairly safe from pillaging, compared to the others. It being backline however probably means that you settle it only late.
- SE meanwhile has a very strong 2nd city 2SW, sharing corn and claiming gold, furs, fish, and crab. If SW start doesn't steal it.
- NW has the PH second city, and would settle for gold only afterwards I assume
- I see no really great spot for 2nd city for SW, maybe S of sugar?
I increasingly feel like we should pick a start, based upon whether we want a hunting or agri civ (or Zulu ) and then a leader/civ package when the snake comes back. For starting techs, also mind that an agri civ will need hunting fairly soon to claim happy, while the NE start can neglect Agri until a possible conquest (and even then, if the farms stay unpillaged it is unnecessarsy?)
Possible packages:
Stalin of Japan -> probably NW start, claim plainshill, chop Oracle into MC in cap?
2 civs are already taken (Thoth has Rome and yuris Babylon). So we can take a grain start and be assured that a viable civ will come back. I'm more excited about the hunting civs, but don't see a convincing dotmap for the NE start yet.
NE start idea is interesting. Could we possibly do IND Native Americans? I don't love chopping the deer, but it could be worth it in this context. That's also a lot of worker turns to spend that early in an AW setting, though.
Seems that you don't like the SW start in the way that I do, which is interesting. Could you explain why? Is it just the 2nd city thing? I don't know if I agree, I think cities that work a grain->whip WB are decent. Like I've said many times though, opening are a weakness for me.
I like Cyrus or Catherine of Egypt, maybe Cyrus slightly more.
Looking at the map again, Stalin of Japan in the NW start could also be really nice. The pig/ivory cities is difficult to defend though, since both will be jungle-locked for a long time.
I need to look more carefully at the starts, but in the meantime, feel free to respond to all this. We might need to cut down on length though.
And some thoughts on the other picks:
I hate Babylon. It indicates a PRO leader (bad), and relies on lots of hills (as you've said, map is quite flat), and it's not like Bowman will be the difference in a Praet rush anyway.
Rome is good. Duh.
Boudicca seems like a strong pick. I think AGG will be the best trait here, and the map is not super happy.
(October 14th, 2022, 18:12)Amicalola Wrote: SW has a plains floodplain. Not sure if that's intentional or not. Even without it, that start also gets an extra turn of improved wheat. Otherwise, I'll post some more detailed thoughts on picks and starts soon!
Yeah, that is not intentional, sorry. I thought I had caught all of those...
Ok that's curious, because I really had SW down as the one start that has nothing special going for it.
NE is prereq for hunting civs
NW has the PH second city, which imo is the strongest defensive position, on a hill and with great vision. Needs culture though for the fish
SE has a great 2nd city SW of gold, which imo is superior to SW's in every aspect (Also shares corn and gets a chop, but on top has the gold and the wb can be supplied from the capital. The one downside I see is that the backline city has to be founded on horse.
You said that SW gets more safe cities than others? Can you elaborate, I don't see it yet.
I think for picking we should try to get a dotmap for each start, and check actual tech costs to see how viable Japan is. Can a BW->Agri start with Japan possibly work?
Pericles of America is very fashionable these days, and actually I'm dedlurking Charriu with it in pb67. Of course thwart game's parameters are as far from this one's as possible. Would Alex of America also work for you? It sounds like too many great scientists but maybe we can steer that.
(October 15th, 2022, 03:23)Miguelito Wrote: Ok that's curious, because I really had SW down as the one start that has nothing special going for it.
NE is prereq for hunting civs
NW has the PH second city, which imo is the strongest defensive position, on a hill and with great vision. Needs culture though for the fish
SE has a great 2nd city SW of gold, which imo is superior to SW's in every aspect (Also shares corn and gets a chop, but on top has the gold and the wb can be supplied from the capital. The one downside I see is that the backline city has to be founded on horse.
You said that SW gets more safe cities than others? Can you elaborate, I don't see it yet.
I think for picking we should try to get a dotmap for each start, and check actual tech costs to see how viable Japan is. Can a BW->Agri start with Japan possibly work?
Pericles of America is very fashionable these days, and actually I'm dedlurking Charriu with it in pb67. Of course thwart game's parameters are as far from this one's as possible. Would Alex of America also work for you? It sounds like too many great scientists but maybe we can steer that.
I sadly won't have time tonight, but I could try making a dotmap of some sort tomorrow morning (about 12 hours from now)? Would that be fast enough? If it's not, I would trust your instinct over mine.
I don't hate Alex, but I wonder if the CRE part is more important than the PHI with America on this map. Maybe KK is better? I'm actually not sure, it's close imo, and Alex would also be fine.
If we just want the academy then you're right and KK of America can get it in very reasonable time. Might even argue whether the America part is very helpful. The techs are very good though.
I feel like bulbing should be very strong, hence how I'm drawn towards Phi, the problem is I don't really see the right bulb path yet past academy/maths. Or is this the game to settle GS, given the low city count? That needs time though to pay back.
I'll do the dotmap tonight or maybe even earlier, just comment when you find the time.
(October 15th, 2022, 05:41)Miguelito Wrote: Your opinion on Inca btw? Also considering that you and me know how annoying a well placed holy city can be, and now imagine on this map...
I like terraces as much as the next guy, but I think the start techs are pretty crippling. It's minor, but the terraces are also purely 45h granaries here - nice, but not gamebreaking. On a map this small, I think it's more important to get cities on the map than to build granary an extra 1-3 turns faster. So I like most of the other ideas you mentioned more than Inca. But I'm the dedlurker, so if you're super keen for it, fire away!
https://ibb.co/QF71RZM
Dotmap attempt.
Of course these conflict between each other starting with second cities, so that underscores the importance of claiming land quick enough, Ange maybe picking Imp.
Red could get a 5th city with N of pig + N of horse
I still like green best. Green 4 is very optimistic, but can be moved south if needed.
Red has that defensive 2nd city spot going for it, but on the one hand that's it needs culture, and on the other settling the gold is awkward.
Nothing of that matters if we decide we want a hunting civ, but it didn't really look like it, or does it?
Can I ask you to give Vikings another thought? I think 3move galleys / triremes will have a huge advantage, otoh I might be overvaluing naval combat in this setup.
Pic is bronken for me. I'm ok with the Vikings if you want them. Not super exciting but definitely playable/strong. My heart still belongs to Stalin of Japan but I could probably accept the terrible ness of that eventually.
) and then a leader/civ package when the snake comes back. For starting techs, also mind that an agri civ will need hunting fairly soon to claim happy, while the NE start can neglect Agri until a possible conquest (and even then, if the farms stay unpillaged it is unnecessarsy?)
