[PB79] End of the beginning?

[coldrain]

Made some tests with different starts. Here's the interesting ones.

Fishing boat start -> worker (Hunt + fishing civ):
·         T6 workboat done, agri researched. Start worker.
·         T13 mining done, start BW.
·         T15 worker done, start warrior. Farm rice.
·         T20 size 2 cap and work improved rice. Worker goes to mine open hill (adds a turn on grassland farm) while moving).
·         T21 warrior done, start another.
·         T23 size 3 cap, work banana.
·         T25 BW done, start AH.
·         Grow cap to size 4 and start settler (forgot to write down turn of growth).
·         T32 settler done (one chop completed after mine)
·         T33 AH done
·         T35 worker #2 done (second chop), start pasture

Worker start -> WB (Hunt + fishing civ):
·         T6 agri researched. Start mining
·         T10 worker done, start WB. Work PH.
·         T14 mining done, start BW. Rice farm done and work it. Farm cows.
·         T19 WB done, start warrior. Cow farm done. Move to mine open hill.
·         T22 Size 3 cap.
·         T25 mine done (not worked yet)
·         T26 BW done. Worker moves to chop. Warrior done start another.
·         T27 cap size 5.
·         T29 warrior done, chop into settler.
·         T31 Cap size 6, revolt slavery
·         T32 Triple whip settler
·         T33 overflow and chop into worker or settler
·         T35 AH done

Worker start and stay coastal (hunting + mining civ)
·         T6 agriculture done. Start BW.
·         T10 worker done, start warrior.
·         T14 farm done. Worker goes to mine open hill.
·         T16 cap size 2 + warrior done, start another. Work banana.
·         T20 cap size 3 and work mine.
·         T21 BW done, worker moves to forest and start chopping. Research set to fishing (6 turns) or AH (9 turns).
·         T24 chop done. Worker will chop another forest next.
·         T27 fishing done.
·         T28 settler done, start WB. Chop done. Worker moves to chop another forest.
·         (revolt to slavery)
·         T30 WB done, work max food. Start warrior.
·         T33 cap size 4 and chop completed warrior. Start worker/settler. First worker can start another chop or move to first expand.
·         T36 AH done.

Optional: check with starting scout if founding 1SW or 2S gains another agri/pasture resource.
Worker start and move inland for another pasture resource (hunting + mining civ, map permitting)
·         T0 move scout and settler.
·         T1 found on desired spot. Tested 1SW spot.
·         T7 agriculture done. Start AH.
·         T12 worker done, start warrior.
·         T17 farm done. Warrior completed, start another.
·         T18 AH done, start cow pasture next to rice. BW next.  
·         T19 cap size 2.
·         T21 first pasture done.
·         T22 warrior done, start another.
·         T23 cap size 3, worker starts second pasture.
·         T26 cap size 4, warrior done. Start settler.
·         T31 BW done, start wheel or fishing. Worker starts chop.
·         T32 settler done. Start worker or settler. Revolt to slavery.

Analysis:

All tests were done with Monarch difficulty, normal speed and standard world size. Workboat first provides the most accumulated commerce and is the best approach to fishing civ that I could think of. Worker first with fishing civ results in more wasted or less valuable worker turns.

Interestingly, with hunt + mining civ (Ethiopia) moving inland can be quite good if it adds another agri or pasture resource. If staying coastal, first settler can be done earlier, at the cost of delaying workboat by a lot.

[coldrain]

Now that all other players have locked in their civs (waiting for last leader pick before it's my turn), let's have a quick glance. I have a free pick from the CHA synergy civs I was thinking of. America is also open with the possibly busted UB for PHI leaders. Looks like Superdeath convinced ricketyclick to try AGG Rome that spelled his doom in PB75  

So what should I take? I have to admit, AGG Praetorians could be scary to neigbour. Made a case study of axemen/Dog soldier/horse archer vs AGG praetorians with different promotion combinations. Combat on flat ground:
·         axeman vs praetorian (combat I): 29,9%
·         axeman (combat I) vs praetorian (combat I): 35,5%
·         axeman (combat I + shock) vs praetorian (combat I): 69,9%
·         axeman (combat I + shock) vs praetorian (combat I + shock): 35,5%
·         Dog soldier vs praetorian (combat I): 34,8%
·         Dog soldier (combat I) vs praetorian (combat I): 65,2%
·         Dog soldier (combat I + shock) vs praetorian (combat I): 72,1%
·         Dog soldier (combat I + shock) vs praetorian (combat I + shock): 65,2%
·         Horsearcher vs praetorian (combat I): 10,7 + 17,8%
·         Horsearcher (combat I) vs praetorian (combat I): 21,9 + 15,6%
·         Horsearcher (combat I + shock) vs praetorian (combat I): 34,8 + 13,0%
·         Horsearcher (combat I + shock) vs praetorian (combat II): 29.4 + 14,1%

Dog soldiers are by far the best counter to AGG Praetorians in the early game. I could try to get catapults or even crossbowmen, but those arrive a lot later. So safe pick would be Native America, greedy economy pick would be America (library UB) or maybe Greece (easier golden ages with Odeon specialists + happy cap). Need to think about this a bit more...

[civac2]

Have you looked at slowbuilding a workboat with the banana forest while growing to 2? You mentioned the possibilty earlier but I don't see it as an option among your test runs.

[Dreylin]

Interesting. In the Fishing start, could you switch AH before BW so the Worker can go to the Cow? Or would the Settler build at size3 instead of 4 to better time with the Slavery revolt?

OTOH, America is Fishing + Agriculture, so you could start with AH and be ready to improve the Cow after the Rice. That's probably the fastest start you're looking at here, then you out-tech them.

[coldrain]

Have you looked at slowbuilding a workboat with the banana forest while growing to 2? You mentioned the possibilty earlier but I don't see it as an option among your test runs.

I tried this, and it will be a bit ahead in food, but a lot behind in commerce. Maybe I have to double check with AH ->BW versus BW->AH again to see how tech timings align with less commerce.

Interesting. In the Fishing start, could you switch AH before BW so the Worker can go to the Cow? Or would the Settler build at size3 instead of 4 to better time with the Slavery revolt?

OTOH, America is Fishing + Agriculture, so you could start with AH and be ready to improve the Cow after the Rice. That's probably the fastest start you're looking at here, then you out-tech them.

If starting with hunting + fishing, going for AH before BW results in worker being idle 2-3 turns (or partially build some random grassland farm while waiting) and first settler is 1 turn later without the chop help. With BW first, the worker can start chopping, and wastes no turns waiting. The only risk is that forest grows on the only open hill before a mine is built, resulting in (mostly) useless grassland farming anyway.

Fishing + agri civ allows going for AH before BW and the woirker has meaningful actions to do at all times. America is looking like a tempting option. Just hope that AGG Rome is on the other side of the map?

[coldrain]

Ah, giraflorens made decision, now it's my turn to do the final pick. I was sort of hoping to sleep on the decision, but I don't want to delay starting the game. I'll pick Native America, as the original idea I had was to try CHA synergy with UB. Dog soldiers are a nice insurance against Rome if we are neighbours.

[Dreylin]

Fishing + agri civ allows going for AH before BW and the woirker has meaningful actions to do at all times. America is looking like a tempting option. Just hope that AGG Rome is on the other side of the map?

Well the may not be a lot of "other side of the map" with a 5player game - look at PB78 - but it also looks like the others aren't changing their plans based on Rickety's pick and may be tastier targets. It's all about looking prickly / running faster when the bear is looking for a target...

[Dreylin]

Ah, giraflorens made decision, now it's my turn to do the final pick. I was sort of hoping to sleep on the decision, but I don't want to delay starting the game. I'll pick Native America, as the original idea I had was to try CHA synergy with UB. Dog soldiers are a nice insurance against Rome if we are neighbours.

I don't know that you need to rush the pick; from what I gather the map may not be finished yet. Either way It's a decent pick that certainly gives a counterbalance to AGG Rome. Just don't forget that the Totem Pole is on Archery not Mysticism!

[coldrain]

Yeah, I could have waited a bit longer thinking about NA vs USA vs Greece. But I'm happy with the choice, it feels like a good balance of playing it safe and having a good synergy.

Maybe should have asked this earlier, but I assume CtH doesn't change great person bulb priorities? Trying to think ahead about a plan for using PHI and bulbing would be a useful tool. Early academy wouldn't be horrible either, but usually I like bureucracy/academy capital to be inland for more cottages.

[civac2]

Tech preferences for GP bulbs are unchanged.