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Sullla Wrote:I won by eight votes. The cities I captured from Mansa Musa had a population of exactly eight (size 7 and size 1). I could not have done it without them.
Actually, without those, you would have won exactly, right? You had 469 and required 461, so without those 8, you'd have had 461 out of a required 461 and won, or am I misunderstanding the border condition for votes?
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Hi,
Sullla Wrote:I'm not sure any one tech was the best; about all I can say is that I didn't want to wait until 600 or 700AD before being able to mine stuff. I've seen several reports saying something along that line, but I'd like to dispute that.  I don't think Mining was needed at all in the beginning. At least in my game, my workers were busy connecting resources and building cottages for a long time - it was not hammers we needed, it was commerce and trade material! And the gold tile, what good does it do? It allows your cities to grow one size larger, but where's the point? So that they can work another unimproved tile? And the largest cities were busy building workers anyway, without being able to grow.
I think it was a valid option because it opened up the path to Bronze Working, but in my view, the mining ability itself wasn't needed until way later into the game.
-Kylearan
There are two kinds of fools. One says, "This is old, and therefore good." And one says, "This is new, and therefore better." - John Brunner, The Shockwave Rider
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Hmm, virtually everyone here has posted some kind of disagreeing comment to my report. I guess that just goes to show that there are many valid strategies out there.
And as far as the gifting of gold - I really have no idea what causes it, aside from good shared relations. Peaceful leaders like Gandhi and Elizabeth seem much more likely to share money than the aggressive ones, although once Saladin was Friendly from shared religion, he was willing to chip in a little bit as well. If I were to compare it to anything, I would say it's probably similar to how good relations with a civ can overcome the trading limitations in this game: similarly obscure and beneficial to the player. Sirian seems to think that I'm hiding something from the community here, but that's just not the case. I'm trying to reverse-engineer this thing same as everyone else, and stumbling around mostly in the dark.
If we want to make asking for gold or techs as gifts an exploit, that's fine with me. I'm really not using this much in my games. But this was an economic recovery scenario game - I mean, if your friends can't give you help in that situation, when is it ever appropriate to ask for it? It's been a little jarring (and unexpected) to take criticism over this issue.
I will be happy to follow any rules we adopt, but they have to be established first.
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Sullla - I certainly asked Saladin and Lizzie for techs. But this was just after Saladin asked me to swap to Judaism (which I did after a 15 minute think). After I took him up on his offer, he said something like "its good to have friends" ... that got me thinking about asking for his help ... please give me a tech (something very cheap from memory) and he said "sure - happy to help such a good friend".
I was VERY VERY surprised that he gave it to me. My response was - well, it worked once, lets try it with Lizzie (also Jewish) - and it worked again (mining this time). I tried another 10 times through out the game ... asking these two fast friends for techs ... and they always said NO.
I am sure that this only happened in this game because we were so far behind in tech (ie weak) and they liked me. I don't think this is an exploit.
The only other time that you can get money is when you are much stronger than they are ... I haven't seen anyone extorting techs with this - but that shouldn't happen as they are usually way behind in tech.
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Hi,
Sullla Wrote:Hmm, virtually everyone here has posted some kind of disagreeing comment to my report. I guess that just goes to show that there are many valid strategies out there.  Indeed, that is CIV's saving grace for me, playing the game in this community to see the different approaches and how they work out most of the time. This really helps me to put up with all the flaws the game has.
-Kylearan
There are two kinds of fools. One says, "This is old, and therefore good." And one says, "This is new, and therefore better." - John Brunner, The Shockwave Rider
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Hi,
Sullla Wrote:Peaceful leaders like Gandhi and Elizabeth seem much more likely to share money than the aggressive ones, [...] If we want to make asking for gold or techs as gifts an exploit, that's fine with me. Does anybody know if the AIs distinguish between types of demands? In my game, I've asked for (and received) a trade embargo against Qin from Hatty. Does the AI simply convert the value of a demand into a specific internal currency, gold for example? Or are certain favors granted more easily than others, maybe even differently between AI personalities? For example is it easier to get gold than an embargo? Or is Washington more reluctant to agree to an embargo than, say, Toku? I haven't used this feature much, so I've no idea.
-Kylearan
There are two kinds of fools. One says, "This is old, and therefore good." And one says, "This is new, and therefore better." - John Brunner, The Shockwave Rider
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Sirian Wrote:You mentioned something about "checking every turn for deals, Civ3 style" in your report. Kylearan said something similar, I think. That was caused by an interface failure
I can pinpoint that one. The interface failure is that there's no summary to see what *you* can offer *them*. If you're looking for opportunities to trade away a surplus resource or unimportant tech for whatever you can get, you must work the diplo tables yourself until you see a good opportunity.
Regarding freebies, I got one in this game by asking Hatty for Mathematics, and you better believe I was pretty surprised when she agreed. I kept asking frequently and broadly after that, but never got any more. I'm OK with it being an unpredictable black box. Think about how it goes when you ask a favor of a friend or relative or coworker in real life: whether they'll accede depends on innumerable factors from the actual request to the mood they're in after fighting with their wife or boss last week.
But the gifting most definitely does present problems for a competitive scenario. If you can get something for free, with unlimited tries, then it's clearly the One Right Move to constantly try, and anyone who doesn't do so will miss out and be playing from behind.
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Kylearan Wrote:Hi,
I've seen several reports saying something along that line, but I'd like to dispute that. I don't think Mining was needed at all in the beginning. At least in my game, my workers were busy connecting resources and building cottages for a long time - it was not hammers we needed, it was commerce and trade material! And the gold tile, what good does it do? It allows your cities to grow one size larger, but where's the point? So that they can work another unimproved tile? And the largest cities were busy building workers anyway, without being able to grow.
I think it was a valid option because it opened up the path to Bronze Working, but in my view, the mining ability itself wasn't needed until way later into the game.
-Kylearan
In my Game it was essential for my surviving that I went after Mining/ BW first. Had I chosen Alpha instead I would most likely lost the game when Hatty attacked me.
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Kylearan Wrote:I don't think Mining was needed at all in the beginning. At least in my game, my workers were busy connecting resources and building cottages for a long time - it was not hammers we needed, it was commerce and trade material!
I went for Mining first, because it would speed the production of the workers themselves after the first ones. A mined hill generates 4 total production towards building a worker, more than any non-resource tile (tied with farmed flood plains.) That didn't really work out, though, since the first workers first needed to improve the food resources so I was mostly done training workers by the time the mines actually came online, and most of the hills I wanted to mine were forested (thus requiring BW), and the difference was maybe one turn anyway.
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Sullla Wrote:It's been a little jarring (and unexpected) to take criticism over this issue.
I'm questioning the feature, not its use. Others also got gifts. It may be particular to being this far behind in tech and economy, creating what seems like a high instance of acceptance. Still, the question remains for me, how to factor this feature in to scenario design. As Kylearan points out, there is no down side to asking friends for gifts, so technically speaking, the best thing to be doing is asking over and over, to be sure to get your share of the freebies (either by rolling the dice more often, or by stumbling over the fixed conditions, or a combination of both).
Anything involving gameplay of micromanaging the diplo screen every turn is subpar. We never ruled against it in Civ3, though, because it is one of those "dual use" problems. There are legitimate times when players, in the normal course of play, might be checking every turn for a short span, and some players will naturally have more tolerance for MM of this type. It's just that if it's more a matter of a test of patience than a test of strategy or tactics, then for tournament purposes it poses a drag.
Choosing your thread to post my thoughts was not meant to aim anything at you. I can do this in somebody else's thread next time, if you would prefer.
- Sirian
Fortune favors the bold.
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