[SPOILERS] Joao "can't think of a fancy thread name" of Persia. yuris125 & Commodore

[Commodore]

That's unrealistic unfortunately. There are barbs out there in addition to bloodthirsty players, so we need at least Warrior defence in every city, preferably Archer or Axe (although that's too many hammers not spent on Workers/Settlers)

A couple roving immortals, then. Might as well get use out of the UU, right?

[yuris125]

OK, here is the all-important opponent analysis post. Let's see what we have here

18. spacetyrantxenu - Mao (EXP/PRO) of Native America (Fishing/Agriculture, Dog Soldier, Totem Pole)
There can be argument about ranking leaders/civs, but I think it's quite clear that spacetyrantxenu somehow annoyed RNG gods. Admittedly, Pro trait is not as useless as usual in a AW game, and Exp is always good. UB allows him to produce super-promoted Archers/Longbows, so he will have relatively easy time holding off attacks until the Rifles era. However, even if Pro is not completely useless, it's weaker than other traits, and playing with one good trait, useless UU, and UB which doesn't help either economy or offensive war is going to be very challenging
17. Lewwyn - Boudica (CHA/AGG) of Korea (Mysticism/Mining, Hwacha, Seowon)
Boudica is an ok leader for an AW game, but no economic benefits will hurt. Korea is just bad for AW. Advantages of a Mysticism start are doubtful, even more so when you don't have Agriculture, and doubly so when you might need AH for your first food resource. Hwacha is decent, but its usefulness diminishes if your opponent mixes melee units with Archers, or prefers mounted units. Seowon also isn't a big improvement over University. Lewwyn is very aggressive, so maybe he will be ok playing Boudica. But I'm sure he wishes for a better civ
16. Mackoti and SevenSpirits - Justinian (SPI/IMP) of Germany (Hunting/Mining, Panzer, Assembly Plant)
Again, leader is ok. Imp allows to establish a bigger empire before the neighbours come knocking; Spi requires a lot of skill to take full advantage of, but I have no doubt Mackoti and Seven have this skill. But the civ is again useless. I would say it's slightly better than Korea: at least it gets 2 Worker techs to start with. So both leader and civ are slightly better than what Lewwyn ended up with, but not by much
15. Azza - Washington (EXP/CHA) of Vikings (Fishing/Hunting, Berserker, Trading Post)
Washington is above average. Exp is a vital trait; I'm not a big fan of Cha, but as Commodore pointed out, it's reasonably good in AW. But Vikings... on a pangaea... the civ has no bonuses whatsoever, and subpar starting techs
14. Catwalk - Shaka (AGG/EXP) of Aztec (Mysticism/Hunting, Jaguar, Sacrificial Altar)
The repeated theme of this analysis: leader is ok, civ is below average. UB is quite good for this game: I expect there will be a lot of whipping, and halved unhappiness period will be very useful. But bad starting techs and bad UU make this combo not very powerful
13. Lord Parkin and Nabaxo - FDR (IND/ORG) of Ethiopia (Hunting/Mining, Oromo Warrior, Stele)
FDR is one of only 2 Ind leaders in the game, which is good. Paired wit Org, however, it means that there are no top-tier traits in this combo. Starting techs are below average, UB doesn't give much benefits in the early game, UU also comes late. If they survive until mid-game, and don't invest much hammers into wonders they lose, they should be ok. But they risk falling behind in the early game
12. HitAnyKey - Brennus (SPI/CHA) of Ottoman (Wheel/Agriculture, Janissary, Hamman)
Brennus is tricky, but if you take advantage of Spi to switch between econ and military civics, Spi and Cha have a decent synergy. Starting techs are good, UU is good. UB is decent, although you normally wouldn't build Aqueducts everywhere, so it forces to spend extra hammers. My main concern is that this combo doesn't give early game advantages, apart from good starting techs. I think utilise leader traits will be of utmost importance
11. Meiz - Gandhi (SPI/PHI) of Khmer (Hunting/Mining, Ballista Elephant, Baray)
Gandhi is a good leader, but not for AW. He performs best when left in peace and allowed to spam farms and employ a ton of specialists. Starting techs are bad, UB I don't like. However, Meiz will be the only player allowed to use War Elephants (or rather Ballista Elephants), and I think this could be huge. We'll see how much of an advantage this will be, but I expect Ballista Elephants to play an important role in the game
10. Sunrise089 - Genghis (AGG/IMP) of Egypt (Wheel/Agriculture, War Chariot, Obelisk)
The civ is good. UB is useless, especially in AW, starting techs are good and UU is awesome. Unfortunately, Agg doesn't give bonuses to War Chariots, so one has to sacrifice either use of UU, or use of one of the traits, at least in the early game. And on top of this, we have Imp, which gives max benefits when defending rather than attacking. A subpar leader who has anti-synergy with the civ is why I don't like hits combo as much as I normally would've liked Egypt in AW
9. Pindicator - Lincoln (PHI/CHA) of China (Agriculture/Mining, Cho-Ko-Nu, Pavilion)
China is one of my favourite civs. Starting techs are best in the game, UU and UB are useful. But I don't like the leader at all. Phi is difficult to leverage in AW, and Cha isn't too helpful on its own. If Pindicator finds a way to take advantage of these traits, he should be ok. If not... then he's out of luck
8. TwinkleToes89 and Square Leg - Louis (IND/CRE) of Carthage (Fishing/Mining, Numidian Cavalry, Cothon)
Louis is the 2nd Ind leader, with a much stronger second trait than FDR. The problem here is the civ. Starting techs aren't great; UU is ok, but UB has no benefits at all in AW. If not for the leader, I would've ranked this team much lower
7. Plako - Mehmed (EXP/ORG) of Netherlands (Fishing/Agriculture, East Indiaman, Dike)
I feel that Mehmed is the weakest of top-tier leaders. Org is just not a great trait. It's not useless, but not great either. Starting techs are good, but UU and UB are underwhelming. Both come too late to have a real influence, and East Indiaman isn't going to shine on a Pangaea
6. Antisocialmunky - Hatty (SPI/CRE) of Mongolia (Wheel/Hunting, Keshik, Ger)
I love Hatty. She's a great leader and a nice girl. I like Mongolia. Keshiks and Gers are instrumental for winning in AW. I just don't see how they're going to work together. If ASM finds a way, he will be in great shape
5. SleepingMoogle - Peter (PHI/EXP) of England (Fishing/Mining, Redcoat, Stock Exchange)
This is normally a very strong combo. I'm just not sure how valuable Phi will be in AW. And I feel Agriculture is a critical starting tech, any civ which doesn't have it is going to be weakened in the early game
4. Yuris125 and Commodore - Joao (IMP/EXP) of Persia (Agriculture/Hunting, Immortal, Apothecary)
I already said why I think our combo is reasonably good. I honestly think that Imp is going to be better than Phi in this game. Starting techs, UU, UB, everything is good, even if nothing is spectacular. Hope I'm not mistaken
3. Ichabod, Ilios and DaveV - Hannibal (CHA/FIN) of Mali (Wheel/Mining, Skirmisher, Mint)
I have real difficulties ranking Fin leaders. There isn't much between them. I would rank this team 3rd simply because I don't like Mint that much. +10% gold isn't that good, especially when you aren't getting it at half price. It's still a very strong combo, I just feel it's not quite as strong as the other two
2. Nakor, Tatan and Serdoa - Darius (ORG/FIN) of Rome (Fishing/Mining, Praetorian, Forum)
The near perfect combination. Rome is just insanely strong in AW. Paired with Fin trait, it's going to be a killer. I don't like Org too much, and I don't like starting techs too much, but otherwise, this team landed an excellent combo

And the winner is

1. Slowcheetah - Wang Kon (FIN/PRO) of Inca (Mysticism/Agriculture, Quechua, Terrace)
Getting Inca is almost getting a 3rd trait. This combo is almost like the killer trait combo of Fin/Cre, with Pro as a bonus. If Slowcheetah gets an Agri food resource at the start, he will be able to use the Myst starting tech for an early religion (or even several). At the same time, Quechuas are excellent early defenders, and can even be effectively used against the neighbour who goes for fast Archery. I don't want what to wish for: to have Slowcheetah on the other side of the world and let others deal with him, or have him nearby and send Immortals to [strike]wreak havoc and kill[/strike]neutralise his threat early

[Commodore]

Well, looking over those rankings (which I'd quibble with, but except for Gandhi [SIZE="1"](Phi/Spi makes for nice toys)[/SIZE] and the Vikings [SIZE="1"](we're surrounded with water as Pangaea and if I recall the script even throws the occasional island)[/SIZE] I wouldn't move much up or down), the big thing that strikes me is that the RNG did a pretty good job balancing player skill with combos. I'd rate the players roughly thus:

1. Mackoti/Seven
2. Plako (OUCH, decent Leader/Civ combo too)
3. Lord Parkin/Nabby
4. Sunrise
5. Lewwyn

And then all around the same level:

6. Sleeping Moogle
7. Team FFH
8. Yuris
9. Pindicator
10. ASM
11. Nakor/Tatan/Serdoa (averaging)

Lower Tier

12. TT/SL
13. Catwalk
14. Xenu
15. Slowcheeta

The rest I don't know.

[Commodore]

Okay, took a quick look around. Password is "yurisrex", which I hope is okay. Lots of people popping on and off, no surprise, I figure once the morning hits it's all you. Joao looks happy to see you again!



For the edification of those watching at home, Yuri and I chatted earlier about scouting a bit more. If we could get that plains hill plant it would mean a whole lot, so the warrior will go 1NW while the scout goes NE, SE. Fog-reading says it's grassland forest south, so the BFC food is probably in the unforested area N/NW if it is grain. Ideally, though, the scout will show us food for the plains hill plant, even if it's plains deer or grass cow it'll probably be worth it to move. This is Joao, and the reign of "Yuris REX".



Thematically it's up to you, but I know from your 23 thread discussion you listened to a lot of the nu-metal bands of my own adolescence. I figured, eh, why not suggest the theme?

[yuris125]

T0

This is quite interesting



SIPping gives us a better food resource, and makes BW before AH viable. Moving allows the 1st Worker to be ready 2 turns earlier

With this many forests, I'm inclined to SIP and go BW first. Gut feeling says, earlier chops will allow to recover loss of the bonus hammer. Thoughts?

As you might have noticed from other games, I'm indifferent towards naming themes So if you don't mind, the theme is up to you

[Commodore]

T0

This is quite interesting



Thoughts?

Wow, huh, nice choice we have there. I feel like 15 forests vs. 11 forests is almost an embarrassment of riches, with stone we seriously could consider Stonehenge or the 'mids or with marble, the Oracle without really slowing down expansion. In my opinion, the real choice here isn't the forest-counting, it's being able to go BW earlier.

Hum. Although on the gripping hand, in AW I can also see the value of settling on a hill for defensive purposes. Sorry sahib, not really helping the indecision I know. I guess SIP is probably a little better just for the early chops, I could almost see the value of going worker->worker->settler->worker, neighborhood permitting.

One nice thing about this is it looks like we're on a corner of the continent, with sea to the north as well as east. Don't get too relaxed, though, as the trees say southern hemisphere so there is probably more landmass NW. In general, though, it's going to be nice to have a secure flank.

[yuris125]

OK! I agree SIPping is only slightly better, but better nevertheless. Unless we change our mind in the next 2 hours, I will SIP once I get home

[Commodore]

Yeah, although it might be worth playing a quick sim. Normal speed throws me off completely, I never have any idea what timings are off. The thing is, with a worker-worker start, how close are we to BW by the time the second worker is done with the PH settle [SIZE="1"](going AH->mining->BW)[/SIZE]? Improving the PH sheep gives a tile that is actually better for us as Exp when making that second worker. It's a loss of a dozen+ commerce though.

[yuris125]

Yeah, I just got a minute to forget about work and think about important things like where to settle. And I realised that actually with PH and Exp bonuses, the first Worker is produced 5 turns faster than in a city with no bonuses, so appears 4 turns earlier. That's much bigger than 2 turns I talked about before

I will run calculations and maybe build a sim to test. I'm not sure anymore

[yuris125]

Tech costs:

AH - 172
Mining - 85
BW - 207

If we SIP:
For the first 5t we get 10 commerce and 4 foodhammers
T5 - Mining 50/85, Worker 20/60
Then we switch to the corn and get 11 commerce and 4 foodhammers
T9 - Mining 94/85, Worker 36/60
9 beakers overflow, 20% prereq bonus on BW. 9b + 20% = 10b, 13bpt
T10 - BW 23/207, Worker 40/60
T15 - BW 88/207, Worker 60/60
T21 - Farm finishes, BW 160/207, 2nd Worker 24/60
We're now getting 7 foodhammers
T25 - BW 212/207, 2nd Worker 52/60
5 beakers overflow, 40% prereq bonus on AH, 15bpt
T26 - AH 20/172, 2nd Worker 59/60, start chop
T27 - AH 35/172, 2nd Worker 66/60
T28 - AH 50/172, chop in = 20h + 50% = 30h, Settler 43/100
T29 - AH 65/172, start 2 chops, Settler 50/100
T31 - AH 95/172, 2 chops in, Settler 124/100 (I think overflow will be 16h after losing the Imp bonus)

If we move
T0 - we get nothing
From T1 - 40% prereq on AH, 14 bpt, 6 foodhammers
T11 - AH 140/172, Worker done and has nothing to do
T14 - AH 182/172, 2nd Worker 18/60
I would expect 7 beakers overflow after losing the prereq bonus, not exactly sure how it works. 10bpt on Mining
T18 - Mining 47/85, pasture done on the PH sheep, making it a 3/2/1 tile. We now get 11 bpt and 8 foodhammers. 2nd Worker 42/60
T21 - Mining 80/85, 2nd Worker 66/60. Let's say 6h overflow after Imp bonus. On Settler we get an extra bonus hammer, so 9hpt
T22 - Mining 91/85, Settler 15/100
6 beakers overflow + 20% prereq bonus = 7, 13 bpt
T23 - BW 20/207, Settler 24/100
T31 - BW 124/207, Settler 96/100

So, by my calculations, if we move, we get the Settler later, and don't get access to chops until T38. Also, we get the first 3 techs earlier if we SIP, because we get the 11th bpt earlier. I think we should SIP