[SPOILERS] Commodore, Mist and the Weed. A Farce in three acts.

[Commodore]

Seven said it'll be like PBEM 25, so while there's some water, I don't think there will be enough of it to warrant Fishing, Colossus or TGL. So probably not Frederick.

I can be completely sold on Pericles of Arabia.

Well, the issue in 25 was that Seven started everyone with lake fish, the best of all possible foods (sans lake fish in lighthouse range). Rome, Carthage, England...definitely worth considering a fishing/mining civ if we're near seafood.

Any particular reason for Arabia? Generally it's considered a bit of a daft move to pick a non-food-enabled starting tech civ, although if Seven is giving us good enough bonuses that might be counteract-able. I like the notion of winning all potential border battles with a cheap +4 culture library, but the priest slots are almost dangerous, as Great Prophets are generally a non-optimal outcome. Camel Archers aren't great, but promoted Flanking II they do manage a nice catapult impression.

Oh, how about Pericles of Byzantium? Needs a bit more work to pull off, but a careful bulb strategy heading towards Guilds would pay off in spades with the broken joy that is cataphracts.

[Commodore]

Giggles of the Aztec, rush them all. Fool proof, flawless, go for it.

Seriously, thats...very complex. We like Alex of something, although we're not sure what exactly. Rome wouldn't be all bad. Ironically, I am reasonably certain that Pacal of Inca is still leaps and bounds better than all others.

[Mist]

Giggles of the Aztec, rush them all. Fool proof, flawless, go for it.

Don't laugh. I'm really, REALLY tempted by Boudica ( Library / Granary ) of Rome ( No Culture Capital / No RR Plains Hill ). Or even Byzantium, Agg/Cha Cataphracts are most likely worth not starting with a scout and railroaded mine.

Seriously, thats...very complex.

This gives me headaches. And I'm the one with no clue here. I can't even begin to imagine how Commodore feels

We like Alex of something,

I actually like Sitting Bull more. But we can both agree on Alex, and that's a start.

although we're not sure what exactly.

We don't want anything with Agriculture ( makes corn forested )
We especially don't want anything with Agriculture and Mystycism ( makes corn a forested *plains* tile )
Fishing carries a low penalty, but there's nothing out there to warrant having it from t0
Mystycism without Agriculture is a pretty minor hit.
So is Wheel without Protective.

Aztecs might be very good, so would probably Ethiopia and HRE. Or Rome/Byz/Mongols if we screw the SE and plan to make do with cottages and go and fight everyone around.

Rome wouldn't be all bad. Ironically, I am reasonably certain that Pacal of nca is still leaps and bounds better than all others.

Pacal Maybe, but not Inca, Inca starts without a scout and with a forested plains corn. Not fun.

[Mist]

Aand Brian takes Ms Courthouse/Grocer.

Any idea what's so good in that combo to have it as first pick?

[Commodore]

Aand Brian takes Ms Courthouse/Grocer.

Any idea what's so good in that combo to have it as first pick?

Hrm, I'm not completely sure, but I think what I would do in his shoes would be to pair it with Aztec, getting a Sacrificial Altar in his capital for amazingly intense whipping cycles. [SIZE="1"](Try Catherine the Great for intense whipping)[/SIZE] The discounted SA is only 60 hammers to the normal courthouse's 80, so it fits well in general with a REX-focused IMP/CRE leader like Cathy. The Grocer is almost a bonus, but if he really is aiming to crash his economy as fast as possible with settling, he'll be running 0% most of the time (with cheap Cre libraries running scientists for his research), so his best economic doubler is the gold building, not the science one. I could be wrong, of course, but it makes sense.

Lewwyn, of course, is just smart enough to know that half-Creative is easily worth starting without a scout and with the "bad" wet plains corn. Which is still a pretty sexy tile.

[Commodore]

Don't laugh. I'm really, REALLY tempted by Boudica ( Library / Granary ) of Rome ( No Culture Capital / No RR Plains Hill ). Or even Byzantium, Agg/Cha Cataphracts are most likely worth not starting with a scout and railroaded mine.

I actually really like the Fishing/Mining start in general. So Rome and Carthage are both attractive to me. It's really Chm or Agg here in BTS-land, because stables mean that horses love them some Chm, whereas Agg C1 bonuses don't apply to horse units. Agg Rome is something I'm all for though.

This gives me headaches. And I'm the one with no clue here. I can't even begin to imagine how Commodore feels

I actually like Sitting Bull more. But we can both agree on Alex, and that's a start.

I like Sitting Bull in many ways, but I can't help but feel that a). Protective kind of means you want a solid archer UU, and outside of Mali most of them don't do much for me, and b). with stone available, cheap walls and castles are nerfed.

We don't want anything with Agriculture ( makes corn forested )
We especially don't want anything with Agriculture and Mystycism ( makes corn a forested *plains* tile )
Fishing carries a low penalty, but there's nothing out there to warrant having it from t0
Mystycism without Agriculture is a pretty minor hit.
So is Wheel without Protective.

Aztecs might be very good, so would probably Ethiopia and HRE. Or Rome/Byz/Mongols if we screw the SE and plan to make do with cottages and go and fight everyone around.

I dunno, what seems most fun to you? Wang Kon or Giggles of Mali, would be one aggression option, Alexander of Rome would be bulbing *and* aggression, Pacal or Willem of India would be boring "probably best" play. Lincoln or Hannibal of Carthage might be fun, or of Byzantium. Aztecs I'd really like to pair with Creative, maybe Sury or Pericles? Ethiopia or the HRE are both fine, generalists in any case.

Basically, I'm still up for trying the SE -> culture if you're really keen on it, but I'd have a blast warmongering with these advantages too (and warmongering with either SE or CE backing us up is fine).

[Commodore]

Okay, more and more I think we should pick civ-first. Here's the list I like, and what each is for:

-India, generally strong everything, ideally paired with Exp/something
-Aztec, paired with Cre/something for SA. Kublai warmongering, Pericles SE, Sury REX, or Willem CE.
-Rome, paired with Alexander ideally. Warmonger + SE.
-Byzantium, paired with something Fin. Later warmonger + CE.
-Mali, paired with Pro/something. Rusher.

Of those five, you have any major preferences? The civs are ranked in order of flexibility.

[Mist]

Let's go for Rome.

[Commodore]

Okay, for lurking edification: I had missed that the hill was railroaded, not just roaded. So Mining techs were right out. Mist and I discussed it just as he was heading for work, so this wasn't a coup.

For leader...man, Byz can roll with almost anyone. My own preferences would probably be Willem, Hannibal, Pericles, Mansa Musa, Ragnar, Lincoln in that order. Although I'd could be swayed to Lizzie too, if bulbing + Fin gnarliness sounds good. Basically, Seven's setup has turned what are good starting techs on their head, but a solid leader is still better than anything that tries to be too tricky with the bonuses.

[Mist]

Of the leaders you listed I can go with Lincoln, Pericles and possibly Hannibal. See a pattern here?

But that's still mainly due to my preference for SE, if you think Willem would be a class better, I won't object.

And as a curveball pick suggestion

Ghandi?