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Civ/leader pick

Ok, some initial thoughts:

1. We need civ with hunting. Not only will it allow us to hook up the deer, but open up Animal Husbandry for the sheep.

- unfortunately there is no chance we discover AH in time for our worker. The fastest we can discover AH (Hunting, Agriculture starting techs) is 11 turn. It would be so beautiful if it will land on 10 turn, but we are short 2 coins for that and there is no way we can take it banghead

- Maybe there is still time to propose noble difficulty rolleye

- The starting sheep is very good, but unfortunately streches our discovery path a lot.

2. Awailable civs:

[SIZE="3"]Hunting, Mining:[/SIZE]

Ethiopian - Oromo Warrior, Stele. Stele is shit, and Oromo close to it.

German - Panzer, Assembly Plant. Panzers are great, but the game will not last until modern era, so we will be left with blank civ.

Khmer - Balista Elephant, Baray. Balista Elephant is ok, but nothing spectacular, and there is a good chance we will not have an Ivory making it non existence. Baray is aqueduct with +1 food, but how often do you build aqueducts?

Russian - Cossack and Research Institute. Research Institute is probably the worst UB in the game and Cossack are quite late and there is good chance the game will not last until it.

All of the choices are pretty uninspiring.

[SIZE="3"]Hunting, Wheel:[/SIZE]

Mongolian - Keshik, Ger. Much, much better here. Keshik is a horse archer and we will use it a lot. It has +1 first strike and ignores terrain movement costs. I would say it's quite a decent unit. Pair it with Ger (+4 exp to mounted) and we will have 7 exp starting Keshiks. If we choose Hannibal (Financial, Charismatic) we are 1 exp from a third promo.

[SIZE="3"]Hunting, Agriculture:[/SIZE]

Persian - Immortal, Apothecary. Immortal is very good in single player games, because AI tends to use archers a lot, human players usualy don't, making it less appealing. But it's still quite a decent unit, mostly because it's a chariot that recive defensive bonuses with +50% vs archery on top of it. Apothecary is quite late and very weak UB.

Zulu - Impis, Ikhanda. Impis are IMO the best military units in the game. They are so versatile it's even hard to list all of the goodies. With them we will be quite safe against almost all rushes until Knights era. There is a good chance Egipt and Persia will be in play making Impis even better.
The only real danger to Impis are axes, but Impis with 2 moves and Mobility can outmanouver them at will, and if we pair them with Ragnar (Aggressive, Financial) even axes have no chance against Impis on defensive terrain.
Axe vs shock Impi on a forest or jungle - 33,12%
Axe vs shock Impi on a forested hill 23,87%

- Impis are the best defenders against most of everything until knights. Most of the aggression in MP come from 2-movers and Impis are good against all of them. They are so good, that other teams will probably choose easier targets, giving us some kind of insurance policy, allowing us to snowball our economic financial edge.
- early Impis can choke any civ at will, even axes will have hard times against it.
- If we pair Impis with chariots (in this game we must have AH and BW early) we will have two units that are complementary and are both 2-movers. There is no other such a kombo in the game. Imagine, what would you do if chariots and Impis come to your land. You can't send an axe, because chariot will eat it allive and even if not you will have no odds against Impi on difficult terrain. You can't send a spear, because shock Impi will defeat it with easy. Not to mention the only units that are remotly good against any of the two are 1-mover while Impis and Chariots are 2-movers, even better Impis have Mobility allowing it to pass forest and hills with just 1 move. It's ridiculous yikes
- Impis with it's 2 moves and mobility can flank enemy territory and harrass their land with easy or even raze lightly defended back cities.
- They are great scouts, that can fear not of barbs.

On top of that Zulu have Ikhandas. It's barrack that gives -20% maintance. Early it will probably save you just 1 coin per turn. But 1 coin savings from a building that cost 30 hammers, which you probably build nontheless in some cities stockpile to a great number through of the game. And in case tha game will last longer we will have some economic edge.



To sum it up. Taking into account our start, and the fact that we need civ with hunting, we can have two choices that have real synergy in it, and the second is clearly better:

[SIZE="3"]- Hannibal (Financial, Charismatic) of Mongol
- Ragnar (Financial, Aggressive) of Zulu[/SIZE]

I would love to choose Huayna, but I am affraid, we will have not much time to leverage it's strong points in this game, taking into account our start and map's standard size and the fact that we all start on the same continent. IMO Ragnar of Zulu it's tha way to go. With aggressive trait in all of the mirror machups (ie. axe vs axe) you will have an advantage, meaning if someone want to attack us thay have to take much bigger force than against other civs, making us less than desirable target. If the map will be large or even huge there will be greater chance the game will last past the medieval era, and Huayna would be viable choice there, but unfortunately it's not the case here.
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Mortius Wrote:- unfortunately there is no chance we discover AH in time for our worker. The fastest we can discover AH (Hunting, Agriculture starting techs) is 11 turn. It would be so beautiful if it will land on 10 turn, but we are short 2 coins for that and there is no way we can take it banghead
Hmm. Normal speed? Worker first is a 15t build?
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nabaxo Wrote:If we're first in the pick, we should go India, then take Capac on the way back.

What is good of fast worker, if you have nothing to do with it? India start with Mysticism, Mining, and it would be a very slow start here.
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Mist Wrote:Hmm. Normal speed? Worker first is a 15t build?

The beauty of our start is that we will have a 10 turn worker lol
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Not sure getting a Hunting civ just for the purpose of the tech is necessary or desirable. We can research Hunting before we get a Worker; it only saves us time if we want to head immediately for AH or BW, and after that leaves us behind on beakers.

I like the Zulu, but because the Ikhanda is more expensive than a normal Barracks it kind of pushes us towards the otherwise less-useful Aggressive trait. Not convinced that's where we want to be going.

What techs will we definitely want early on with this start?

Mining + Bronze Working (mines, chops, whips, Copper!)
Hunting + Animal Husbandry (Worker improvements + Horses!)
The Wheel + Pottery (Financial cottages!)

Mysticism might be useful if we want an early Stonehenge build. Agriculture would be useful if a grain resource pops up in the fog, otherwise only for slightly speeding AH (i.e. a dead tech early on, just saving us a few beakers on AH).

Ideally we want to get as many of the key early techs as possible for free with our starting techs - that'd be Mining, Hunting, and The Wheel. Normally Agriculture would be on that list, but knowing our start ahead of time we can bump that one down. Assuming we don't start with Hunting (the cheapest tech), that'd make the optimal combination Mining/The Wheel.

Now, the only civ with that combo is Mali. And incidentally, their Mint would pair rather well with Huayna's Industrious trait. wink I'm not such a fan of Skirmishers, especially when the map is balanced so that we're likely to have good access to resources. But since Hunting is a given with a Deer start, going for Archery isn't so much of a detour as usual. Seems worth considering, anyway. smile
Lord Parkin
Past games: Pitboss 4 | Pitboss 7 | Pitboss 14Pitboss 18 | Pitboss 20 | Pitboss 21
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If we really want to stay in theme, we should choose Napoleon (the leader pig of Animal Farm) as our leader. However, Cha/Org is not the best combination I think, but perhaps we can pair it up with Mongolia to conquer some lands fast... but probably this is not feasible in a MP game.

Alternatively (for a less roleplaying variant), I would also like Huyana (probably the other leaders will be Pacal, Willem, Liz and Darius/Ragnar) so we would be the only Ind team. As a civ, I would suggest the Khmer to stay in theme, however this is a very risky pick because of ivory. I would also like India (perhaps mine the deer hill in the beginning, tech hunting/AH and improve the sheep)
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stonaq Wrote:(perhaps mine the deer hill in the beginning, tech hunting/AH and improve the sheep)
Just a heads up, the deer hill is forested so it can't be mined until Bronze Working. And a camp is far better anyway. smile
Lord Parkin
Past games: Pitboss 4 | Pitboss 7 | Pitboss 14Pitboss 18 | Pitboss 20 | Pitboss 21
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Lord Parkin Wrote:Not sure getting a Hunting civ just for the purpose of the tech is necessary or desirable. We can research Hunting before we get a Worker; it only saves us time if we want to head immediately for AH or BW, and after that leaves us behind on beakers.

The sheep is our only 5 food (with 3 coins on top of it) and we need it ASAP. That's way we need hunting at the start to tech towards AH. Make sims yourself and you will see how much it speeds our growth curve.


Lord Parkin Wrote:I like the Zulu, but because the Ikhanda is more expensive than a normal Barracks it kind of pushes us towards the otherwise less-useful Aggressive trait. Not convinced that's where we want to be going.

It depends on map settings which trait is less and which one is more useful. On this settings I am affraid aggressive is more useful than Industrius (which one I love myself the most smile ), especialy taking into account other teams are composed of probably the best civ players. We are here against Krill, Scooter and others and they will not allow us to spam wonders happily. I even think we have a greater chance for a wonder with aggressive Ragnar, than Industrious Huayna, especialy if we find Marble or Stone. Because besides building it we need to defend it too.


Lord Parkin Wrote:What techs will we definitely want early on with this start?

Mining + Bronze Working (mines, chops, whips, Copper!)
Hunting + Animal Husbandry (Worker improvements + Horses!)
The Wheel + Pottery (Financial cottages!)

add Agriculture or Fishing for that cottages, and IMO Agri is the best of the two. We can still have some crop in the fog.

Lord Parkin Wrote:Mysticism might be useful if we want an early Stonehenge build. Agriculture would be useful if a grain resource pops up in the fog, otherwise only for slightly speeding AH (i.e. a dead tech early on, just saving us a few beakers on AH).

Nope. Agriculture unlocks pottery as I mention before.
If we want Stonhange we will have plenty of time to discover Mysticism later. At the start it's dead end tech.

Lord Parkin Wrote:Ideally we want to get as many of the key early techs as possible for free with our starting techs - that'd be Mining, Hunting, and The Wheel. Normally Agriculture would be on that list, but knowing our start ahead of time we can bump that one down. Assuming we don't start with Hunting (the cheapest tech), that'd make the optimal combination Mining/The Wheel.

With Mining/The Wheel, you will have no food. Taking the start, we really need to discover AH first, there is no real alternative to it, and we need agri or hunting for that, probably two of this techs to speed up the AH, and than agri to unlock Pottery and cottages.

Lord Parkin Wrote:Now, the only civ with that combo is Mali. And incidentally, their Mint would pair rather well with Huayna's Industrious trait. wink I'm not such a fan of Skirmishers, especially when the map is balanced so that we're likely to have good access to resources. But since Hunting is a given with a Deer start, going for Archery isn't so much of a detour as usual. Seems worth considering, anyway. smile

Not the worst combo, but starting without aggriculture or hunting, when we have AH food is hurting ourselves a lot. Later I will post my sims.
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Good point, had forgotten the Sheep will be a 5f/3c tile with Financial. That makes it pretty important to get up and running ASAP. Okay, so that significantly boosts a Hunting start. Not sure about Hunting/Agriculture though, if we won't get to AH before the Worker is ready... seems better to go Hunting/Mining and save time on Bronze Working, which appears to be the logical next move after AH. Unless we want to go Pottery before Bronze Working (risky unless we have Horses)... in which case The Wheel and Agriculture are about equally good (maybe The Wheel slightly edging out Agriculture because of the earlier roads).
Lord Parkin
Past games: Pitboss 4 | Pitboss 7 | Pitboss 14Pitboss 18 | Pitboss 20 | Pitboss 21
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Lord Parkin Wrote:Good point, had forgotten the Sheep will be a 5f/3c tile with Financial. That makes it pretty important to get up and running ASAP. Okay, so that significantly boosts a Hunting start. Not sure about Hunting/Agriculture though, if we won't get to AH before the Worker is ready... seems better to go Hunting/Mining and save time on Bronze Working, which appears to be the logical next move after AH.

Unfortunately there is no good civ with Hunting/Mining only crappy ones.bang

Lord Parkin Wrote:Unless we want to go Pottery before Bronze Working (risky unless we have Horses)... in which case The Wheel and Agriculture are about equally good (maybe The Wheel slightly edging out Agriculture because of the earlier roads).

If we have a crop in the fog we will be spiting ourselves for not taking Agri. Wheel is the same cost as Agriculture, so a small chance of making it to use is much greater than no chance at all with the Wheel. Building roads with the first worker is the sure way to end tha game early smoke With agri we can always farm our floodplains. Not sure it's the best use of it but it's for sure better than building roads.

IMO there is only one viable dicovery path here:
Animal Husbandry - Mining - Bronze Working - Wheel - Pottery.

Bronze Working is so important (slavery, chops, copper) that it can only be outstrip by the tech we need for our food.
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