[NO PLAYERS] Witnessing Democracy Inaction

[Commodore]

I guess I ought to post pictures of the map for globals, come to think of it. Mist can do it now if he wants, or I can when I get home tonight.

[Hesmyrr]

I was wondering where the map thread was, especially since we lurkers have our own forum now :neenernee

[Commodore]

And again with the synergy...if India would like to run a Pyramids specialist economy and also want Industrious to compete with Parkin (some superfluousness there given Fast Workers are amazing help for wonder races), both Ramses and Louis are fine alternatives to Bismark.

[Zargon]

Well, synergy or no, if they're going to bet the farm on landing Pyramids, wouldn't expansive help with winning that race more than creative or spiritual?

Plus, having expansive would mean that landing the Pyramids wouldn't be an all-in, right? They could try and out-REX the opposition if Pyramids don't work out, while it seems like they'd be dead in the water as cre/ind or spi/ind without Pyramids.

[Commodore]

Well, synergy or no, if they're going to bet the farm on landing Pyramids, wouldn't expansive help with winning that race more than creative or spiritual?

Hum, well, speaking about a strict all-in, Expansive is better slightly, worth maybe 5-6 extra worker turns overall from the faster fast workers, and certainly I'm not someone who minds running a Representation specialist economy without Spiritual (for caste) or Creative (el cheapo libraries), those two traits just boost things.

Don't underrate the turn advantage of being about to swap into Slavery and the OR for free as Spiritual, though, that's part of the snowball too, and likewise easily putting your full BFC in-borders can be a huge asset too. (So you want to chop the 'mids...either chop in monument and wait ten turns (plus lose a forest) or have Creative and in five turns own all the woods.

Plus, having expansive would mean that landing the Pyramids wouldn't be an all-in, right? They could try and out-REX the opposition if Pyramids don't work out, while it seems like they'd be dead in the water as cre/ind or spi/ind without Pyramids.

Weeell the issue is that on a toroid REXing isn't a winning strategy without some form of economy booster. The GLH (Ind helps again) is valid, as is Colossus-to-monk-to-SP, which are also Ind-boosted. Please note, again, that's a general fragility, I'd pick Mansa or Darius myself.

[Zargon]

Right, I was speaking strictly from the point of view of a team that decided to forego financial and make it up with Pyramids, exp/ind seems like a better choice than cre/ind or spi/ind.

I think I agree that taking Industrious just so Parkin's team isn't the only one with it leads to a more fragile gameplan, and simply MAD in general. You don't need Industrious yourself to ensure that Parkin doesn't get all the wonders.

[timski]

Eh, it's my understanding (only an understanding, since I don't actually play civ anymore and wasn't particularly good when I did, which is why I have no idea which synergies are and are not worth giving up financial), that fishing capitals are generally slower starts than inland capitals, even if you take an appropriate civ to start fishing. You can see Gilette toying with the idea of doing a fishing start, but if they do it, it would be on the merits of the start in and of itself, rather than any islands it might open up, because realistically, even if they opened fishing, they're still going to settle several cities on the mainland before going to the trouble of settling an island, even if a convenient one is nearby, at which point, who cares if the galley comes from the first city or the second?

This Team Gillette post sums it up pretty well. It is indeed a slower start, but the position thereafter is much stronger, with two 5-food resources at the capital.

The key issue is the map settings, which, as Commodore notes, severely limits REX-ing without a economy. First that means a strong (2x 5-food) capital can still offset a slight delay in development. Second the bonus trade route from an early overseas settlement is more significant, assuming a suitable site is nearby. While it is true that the coast can be settled as a second city, that tends not to happen, because other objectives dominate - securing Copper, Horses, etc. Added: I guess there is a third aspect which is more psychological: If one starts on the coast, one's plans tend to consider the coast more, because the coastal options are always easier. If the coast transpires to be important, one is already well-placed to exploit that. The Great Lighthouse is perhaps the best example - it is invariably easier to build it in your capital than in a later city.

I don't know where the balance lies in this case, merely that it deserves consideration.

[timski]

Well, democracy certainly won through... Most teams have managed to confuse most other teams with their civ/leader pairings. Cynical analysis:

Team Troll as Suryavarman II (Expansive, Creative) of India (Mysticism, Mining) with Fast Worker and Mausoleum: And how exactly do you plan to support your fast Granaries, Libraries, improvements and general expansion against the killer upkeep on this map? Don't worry - Novice's micro will provide the answer!

Team Pirate as Mansa Musa (Financial, Spiritual) of Inca (Agriculture, Mysticism) with Quechua and Terrace: BRB, refreshing my memory on what Terraces do... And how do those starting techs, er... Ah, screw it! Let's just build Cottages.

Team Gillette as Pacal II (Financial, Expansive) of Vikings (Fishing, Hunting) with Beserker and Trading Post: Everyone except Team Gillette is expecting them to settle the Fish. Ok, not as bizarre as the above, but they'll be leaning heavily on Pacal at the start, having put a lot of faith in "Commodore likes water".

Team Menagerie as Huyana Capac (Financial, Industrious) of Khmer (Hunting, Mining) with Ballista Elephant and Baray: The Wonder-whore... with Elephants. No, Khmer for Hunting and Mining, I think. Good thing Stonehenge isn't on anyone else's agenda yet.

TEAM as Willem van Oranje (Financial, Creative) of Sumeria (Agriculture, The Wheel) with Vulture and Ziggurat: Probably the most balanced pairing, as might be expected form the team that choose both together. Decent mix of cash, downkeep and expansion, although the normally good starting techs are countered by the start location.

In many ways democracy provides an excellent, if chaotic, form of balance. Arguably the best picks were by the final team on the snake, simply because they could pick both civ and leader in the same discussion. Meanwhile Team Troll and Pirate, at the top of the snake, ended up with solid civs and solid leaders, who unfortunately are not solid leaders of the solid civ initially selected.

Feel free to make sense of this for me...

[Zargon]

I'm more than a little worried for team Troll. I feel like going for the Pyramids, as awesome as they are, is a trap in this game.

PBEM17 demonstrated all too clearly that a spec economy needs to win in the midgame, because it just can't keep up in the lategame. It also demonstrated that diplomacy on is rather effective at preventing that from happening, almost no matter how large the lead is.

Novice became my favorite player to lurk after watching PBEM17 unfold, both for how he pulled into the lead to begin with, and for how he struggled against the tide, so to speak, of trying to run a spec economy against cottages into the lategame.

But I don't fancy a repeat.

[timski]

One advantage Team Troll have is that Pitboss games very rarely reach the late-game.

At the start of their PBEM17 thread, Novice comments that, "Overall I'd say we have the weakest Civ/Leader combination." Fortunately their PBEM17 start (unseen at the time of their comment) had a lot of food (wet Corn, wet Rice, grass Cow), and their Great Lighthouse location a lot of forests. This game's map is somewhat less favourable.

In PBEM17 almost every city was coastal, so The Great Lighthouse was overpowered. On this game's map completing it won't be such a slingshot to victory. Team Troll will need the Pyramids, but they won't necessarily get them simply by virtue of their faster start. And if they do build them, they'll still be somewhat vulnerable diplomatically.

PBEM17 separated civs geographically, primarily by water. In contrast, this game's map creates almost immediate border tension and rush options, with a central core perfectly formed for dogpiles - everyone more-or-less borders everyone in the middle of the map. That should make a runaway India easier to stomp on.

So, while I acknowledge Novice's micro is excellent, I'm skeptical that they can win again here. And if they don't pull a few wonders out of the hat, or don't survive the subsequent diplomatic fallout, they have very few options to recover.