Leader Choice

[uberfish]

Seriously speaking, I think we need to really discuss this. Let's not rush this decision. And Pyramids without Spiritual is not a good choice, I think. Getting stuck in Caste in a Pangae is not a good choice, I think.

+1

voted for Varn because I see no reason to rush this decision. My real pick would be one of Sury/Liz/MM depending on what we intend to do.

[Ichabod]

There's also religious economy (building the religious wonders). Of course, it's not something that can hold on its own (we wouldn't forgo cottages for that), but it could give some value to a pick like Isabella, Bismark or even Ramesses... Peter could use it too (build a strategy around using GPro bulbs).

Well, apart from being last in the turn order (which can be mitigated by a possible simultaneous start), India is the perfect Civ to get Pyramids with. We have both pre-reqs from Masonry from the get go and Fast Worker chops are straight up better than non-FW chops. It's definetely possible to get them.

[plako]

Economies

1. Espionage economy (but you're always behind)
   
2. Fin cottage economy
   
3. Non-fin cottage economy
   
4. Representation
   
5. Specialist Economy
   
6. Hammer economy
   

Discuss.

So we pick Sury and try to outtech by being larger, or we pick Fin. Sury without cottages needs both Mids and GLH to be competitive, I'd say. It would be high risk trying for that... But fun, of course.

Also... Exp is extremely quick out of the gate. Painful to make do without it.

1. Espionage banned
2. My current alternative #1
3. Not gonna work unless we really are bigger than anyone else
4. Yes - Works with Mansa also, but not totally nescessary. With Sury I think we need this to be competitive. This is also my main problem with Sury. Just one goal and if we fail we're in very tough spot
5. With Sury yes #2 alternative
6. Not gonna work - TMIT tried something like this in PBEM25 and he wasn't competitive

I don't think Exp is totally nescessary. Fast workers give us pretty good start even without Expansive.

[Ichabod]

I don't think Exp is totally nescessary. Fast workers give us pretty good start even without Expansive.

And the only possible "EXP bonus" start sucks long term...

[novice]

Without EXP our SIP->worker->worker->settler plan gets our city settled on T26, so just a two-turn delay compared to EXP. So that plan is still a valid option.

[pling]

The impression I'm getting is that if we pick Sury then our best game plan is to try to make fast workers plus micro skill out-do Team Wonderwhore's Ind trait? Feels like doing neither one thing nor the other & I'm not sure we wouldn't end up in a worse position doing that than if we either went for a Fin leader & didn't wonderwhore as much or went for Ind and went for the wonders properly.

[SIZE="1"](Ob Disclaimer: Little knowledge/skills here, just gut feel based one what's being said )[/SIZE]

[uberfish]

Crossposting from Micro thread, I found that if we're Fin and settle on wine we can actually pick up an early religion after BW (while going worker-worker-settler) without messing up our development (Agriculture arrives in time to improve the corn.)

Obviously the super fast 2nd and 3rd cities are fun too. My concern is that with the SIP plan not only do we have a fairly rubbish capital, but if there's no other resource near that non-irrigated Corn then the 2nd city won't be anything to write home about either.

[Brian Shanahan]

I went with Mansa, Fin for the teching power, and Spi for the ability to leverage that power through the civics.

[zakalwe]

Without EXP our SIP->worker->worker->settler plan gets our city settled on T26, so just a two-turn delay compared to EXP. So that plan is still a valid option.

In comparison, Spi will save us one turn of anarchy very early and several more down the road. And beyond that, Exp is also effectively devalued by the fact that it can no longer be combined with Fin. (Assuming that Fin should be considered the best trait.)

[novice]

In comparison, Spi will save us one turn of anarchy very early and several more down the road. And beyond that, Exp is also effectively devalued by the fact that it can no longer be combined with Fin. (Assuming that Fin should be considered the best trait.)

I'd turn it around and say is devalued by not being combinable with Exp.

The unknown, surrounding terrain will have some impact on what our best choice is. With plenty of forests, non-exp granaries can be chopped.