[PB24 Spoilers] In which Joey finds himself out on tilt from the get-go...

[GermanJoey]

However, Imp gets double GG points - 8 GGs for Imp is the same as 4 for any other civ.

Isn't it more like 6 due to the escalating cost of each additional GG?

Actually, almost! You're right in that I was wrong to approximate double GG points to double GGs. However, 8 GGs for Imp actually cost 15*(1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8) = 540 XP, whereas it costs 30*(1+2+3+4+5+6)=630 GG points for a non-Imp civ to get 6 GGs. So, Imp gives you 8 when you'd otherwise have 5.

So, if we assume that you use your first GG on a super-medic, we can simplify this to say that Agg needs 4 GGs, Cha 5, Imp 5, everyone else 8. You know, I didn't realize, until I wrote these posts up, that Imp is actually just as good as Cha at getting Commando.

note that Cha/Agg of Mongolia (retep this game) needs only one planted GG to get Commando on *any* unit.

[GermanJoey]

Ughhh, my terrible hut luck continues. This is particularly annoying because there's only a 20% chance of this one and only "bad" result from a hut before turn 10, as any other result (TECH, gold, or scout) is great in different ways. Why do we have to play with these stupid things on? I hate feeling behind from T0 just because of a bad dice roll.




At least the land looks pretty good. I'm gonna go down and peak around a bit at this nice looking river valley before I circle back and grab my next map pop.

[spacetyrantxenu]

Wouldn't it be more optimal to grab the hut and get the map first so you don't waste the scout turns? You know the worst dice rolls will only let the popped map "reveal" tiles you've already revealed.* Anyway you're just using up your bad combat rolls for the future, right?

*This may not be factual. Actually I would assume it's not.

[The Black Sword]

The second effect is hidden: the actual cities you have routes with are HIGHER QUALITY because the trade route algorithm matches routes globally based on which cities have the best multiplier. A corollary here is that your rivals will have LOWER QUALITY routes for the same reason, unless they have harbors too.

This is interesting to me: harbors and the custom house are the only buildings in the game that can hurt your rivals indirectly. I remember that in PB18, when my first harbor came in some crappy size-7 fishing village, my city went from having two generic +3c routes to having routes to two cities in the Top 5 City list the turn after the harbor completed, a bonus of 9 commerce total from two routes! These routes had to come from somewhere, which is very likely a rival's capital.

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. Trade routes are not done globally but individually for each civ. Your fishing village stole those trade routes from your own cities!

I'm not much of an Exp fan tbh, but I can't believe you were considering playing it yet again.

[GermanJoey]

The second effect is hidden: the actual cities you have routes with are HIGHER QUALITY because the trade route algorithm matches routes globally based on which cities have the best multiplier. A corollary here is that your rivals will have LOWER QUALITY routes for the same reason, unless they have harbors too.

This is interesting to me: harbors and the custom house are the only buildings in the game that can hurt your rivals indirectly. I remember that in PB18, when my first harbor came in some crappy size-7 fishing village, my city went from having two generic +3c routes to having routes to two cities in the Top 5 City list the turn after the harbor completed, a bonus of 9 commerce total from two routes! These routes had to come from somewhere, which is very likely a rival's capital.

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. Trade routes are not done globally but individually for each civ. Your fishing village stole those trade routes from your own cities!

I'm not much of an Exp fan tbh, but I can't believe you were considering playing it yet again.

Are you sure 100% about this? (Of course, every time I've said this in the past, you've been right and I've been wrong. ) I was under the impression that a given city can only connect to as many foreign cities as it has routes. For example, GoatKCD is perhaps the most lucrative city in the world to have a route to at the moment, but as it only has 3 route-slots available then only 3 cities in the world can connect to it. Thus, if one of your own crappy cities goes up very far in the priority order, you'll be getting routes that others aren't.

What don't you like about Exp? I feel like I've gotten quite a lot out of it in PB18 and PB22.

[GermanJoey]

Wouldn't it be more optimal to grab the hut and get the map first so you don't waste the scout turns? You know the worst dice rolls will only let the popped map "reveal" tiles you've already revealed.* Anyway you're just using up your bad combat rolls for the future, right?

*This may not be factual. Actually I would assume it's not.

Using them up, or... setting a precedent?

Regarding the scout... hmmmm... I'm not sure. Like, lets say I move 2S1E next turn with my scout to check out the river, then move back to the hut - that's have be getting the hut on turn 5. However, if I move to the hut, then move back to that same spot, that's getting to that spot on turn 7. I guess it depends on where I want to go afterwards; if I want to explore to the north->northwest, circling around counter-clockwise to the pig, then the first option is better. If I'd rather continue south -> southwest, circling clockwise to the pig, your suggested route is better. I'm, like 99% sure I'll be settling 1W of the pig right now, unless I get The Wheel from a hut, as it the only place I get auto-routes, and auto-routes are important because TW is my 4th tech right now and I'll be short on worker-turns early. HMMMMmmm...

[spacetyrantxenu]

My post wasn't intended as an actual suggestion. Besides, if the RNG really hated you it would probably just give you a map of all water tiles anyway.

[The Black Sword]

Are you sure 100% about this? (Of course, every time I've said this in the past, you've been right and I've been wrong. lol) I was under the impression that a given city can only connect to as many foreign cities as it has routes. For example, GoatKCD is perhaps the most lucrative city in the world to have a route to at the moment, but as it only has 3 route-slots available then only 3 cities in the world can connect to it. Thus, if one of your own crappy cities goes up very far in the priority order, you'll be getting routes that others aren't.

What don't you like about Exp? I feel like I've gotten quite a lot out of it in PB18 and PB22.

For each civ;

Your internal cities can give out 1 trade route to each other internal city.
Each external city which has open borders to you gives up to one trade route to your civ.

There is no limit on the number of trade routes a city can give out.

I would say I am 100% certain of that, but you have put a small bit of doubt in my mind. If your explanation is true, then it would be possible for two cities in the same civ to have a trade route to the same foreign city, I have never seen that happen.

As for Exp, the worker bonus isn't as strong as other traits on its own, as you mention. Additionally, I'm definitely a player who leans toward underbuilding workers rather than over-building them. Then you have the building bonuses. But these aren't buildings I want to build anyway. In PB18 for example I had only 2 markets, my capital and shrine for ages. I couldn't justify teching Compass either to build a single harbour in my capital, not until I needed caravels. And even in the late game, markets are not a building you put everywhere, as opposed to Libraries. So the buildings tend to be giving additional investment opportunities rather than free hammers. I did play EXP myself in PB13, we even managed to get all 4 market resources there but looking back after the game, I didn't feel it was as useful as other traits could have been.

Also; Can you shorten the title by a few characters? It's a bit too long at the moment when we reply.

[GermanJoey]

Hmmm, what you say is true, regarding routes, although it could just be that there is an additional condition, that each civ may only have one route with a particular city. I wish I could just ask each of the civs I have open borders with in PB22: do you have a route with my capital? If only 3 civs do, then I'm right, and if 4+ do, then you're right. Whether cheap harbor spam is actually worth it depends on the answer (outside of Exp Carthage, heh)...

Regarding the worker bonus, I agree, especially since I also tend to underbuild workers. I think it's even weaker than that, because it weakens the ability of a low-hammer, high-food city to build workers and then whip the overflow into something more expensive, like a library. The worker doesn't build any faster but the food overflow and whip overflow (scaled, but still a problem due to rounding shenanigans) still get divided by 1.35.

On the other hand, I think you're undervaluing Exp markets. I agree that non-Exp markets are not really worth it at all - shrines and Bureau caps only, pretty much. They're just too expensive. However, I think you're undervaluing the Exp Market some because you're looking at them wrong: they're not necessarily additions to libraries, but rather, for the most part better replacements for them, at least early. (Later, you're right in that they're essentially just extra infrastructure) First, they come at a time when your slider will be likely at or below 50%, and thus are just as effective at multiplying commerce as a library, despite being cheaper. In addition, although 15h might not seem like a lot, Markets are a LOT easier to whip in RtR mod in hammer-poor. First, only need 25 hammers are needed compared to 40 to double-whip them (a single forest chop, for example), and only 45 hammers as opposed to 60 to single-whip. (almost fully get-table with overflow). In addition, they give happy when they come in, unlike a library, making that whip even easier. Cheap markets are also nice for cranking out a 2nd golden age, as you can work 4 specialists (with a library + market) out of a single city without needing caste. I dunno... I guess I just like them. Don't worry, I doubt I'll be building very many this game...

And sure, I'll change the title, this one was just a temporary joke about my last-minute leader change while I think up a city-naming scheme.

[GermanJoey]

Thoth has gotten 2 techs from huts already, meanwhile I got a map and 30 gold.