Dantski's 2015-16 spam thread [spoilers mb]]

[v8mark]

Checking in to make it a veritable "God Save the Queen" medley.
I'll try and restrain myself from globally lurking.

Agree Cathy is a no-brainer, aim to city spam and grab land.
Token offering of the post: REM and Gavagai definitely solid players, they're in other pitboss games running atm.

Tally ho!

pb! Welcome along. Although you do slightly ruin our under-the-radar no-hoper profile there's a brew in the kitchen, and it's jam and scones for afternoon tea.



Post on the BFC coming up...

[v8mark]

OK - well in the original set of three I was feeling pretty good that we were around the middle of the road when it comes to ability, and that the lurkers didn't feel that we were outclassed.

Then... we got these picks second time around. These are power picks.

Victoria (Fin/Imp) of France (Agriculture/Wheel; Musketeer/Salon)

Cyrus (Chm/Imp) of India (Mysticism/Mining; Mausoleum/Fast Worker)

Darius (Fin/Org) of the Ottoman Empire (Agriculture/Wheel; Janissary/Hammam)

The BFC itself is an excellent start, and settling in place is a no-brainer. We're on a plains hill, and we have some nice-ish food nearby. There are 4 hills and plenty of food - without running the numbers it tops out in the early game at size 8 or so and ~20 hammers. This is an excellent production capital. It's a quick start with the Oasis and our worker can start farming the wheat before teching AH and pasturing the sheep.

Two of our leaders are Financial, and Financial is an excellent trait - probably the strongest in the game all-round. The sheer amount of stuff it gives you in any given game (both early and late) is huge. There are some negatives for it here though; given our BFC we're not likely to use it in the capital a whole lot. We have a production capital if ever I've seen one.

Note that there's a big incentive for us to grow the capital early with such a good balance of tiles. We'll need Monarchy or some other form of happiness fairly quickly.

Given all of this, I want to argue for Cyrus.

In terms of both horizontal and vertical growth, Cyrus is one of the best leaders in the game. Charismatic basically gives +2 happiness per city. Having a size 7 capital in the ancient era will be trivial. Imperialistic gives +50% settler hammers, which we'll use a lot in this capital. The XP side-effects of both traits are obviously synergistic. The starting techs aren't ideal, but even then we get Mysticism and Monuments for free, and we're a hop, skip and jump away from Bronze Working.

Oh, and we get the Fast Worker, one of the best UUs in the game.

(Important question: given our land, would we be able to tech AH by the time we get round to pasturing the sheep? My instinct says no, and that we'd waste a couple of worker turns, but I haven't checked.)

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Over to you folks!

[Dantski]

Some unedited chat log...

Dantski 16:15
just saw posts in civ thread
TerrorInc 16:15
ahh yes
Dantski 16:15
you dont mind if i load up civ to check your traits are correct?
TerrorInc 16:16
haha of course
i actually did it using civ this time
but yes do double check
Dantski 16:17
ok i have an immediate preference
after seeing combos
darius for me
i haven't read your post so dont know if we came to same conclusion
i just saw willem and eliz on the leader list in the screenshot
who do the lurkers think is worse than me?
TerrorInc 16:23
I really don't know haha
Dantski 16:23
2 metra?
TerrorInc 16:23
I was surprised our picks were so good after the first batch
Dantski 16:23
maybe my last games were so long ago
that people forgot
or they figure ive improved since
TerrorInc 16:23
haha
Dantski 16:23
interesting case you made for cyrus
TerrorInc 16:24
yeah I'm not sure
do you think that's really dumb?
it seems strong to me
Dantski 16:24
honestly
it feels like the weakest of the 3
TerrorInc 16:25
it's hard to turn down financial
Dantski 16:25
especially with working an oasis turn 1
TerrorInc 16:26
yeah true
I don't know, I thought growing big and wide might be worth it
Dantski 16:26
heres an offbeat idea with the cyrus pick
TerrorInc 16:26
esp with the capital geared toward production
Dantski 16:26
religion first tech
TerrorInc 16:26
and India! is so good
hmmm
what would that give us
more happiness?
Dantski 16:26
we have 2 floodplains and oasis
TerrorInc 16:27
for size 8?
is that worth
Dantski 16:27
prob not
just a thought
is agri 9 turns with 10 beakers per turn because of KTB in my practice game?
its a 96 beaker tech
TerrorInc 16:30
KTB?
Dantski 16:30
known tech bonus
so other civs have it so we get bonus
i dont know how much of a boost you get
TerrorInc 16:30
oh right
yeah
it's like 2% or something?
can't remember
Dantski 16:33
so a fast worker takes 12 turns and then can improve the wheat assuming agri first
i think farming takes 6 turns
TerrorInc 16:33
farming is 5
on normal speed
1 turn transit time
Dantski 16:34
well either way cant go agri > AH and have worker immediately improve sheep
TerrorInc 16:34
so 18, then 19 to the sheep
yeah AH is longer than 10 i think
hmm idk
Darius is definitely strong
he'd definitely be my 2nd pick
Dantski 16:34
around 21 22 turns to do both those techs
TerrorInc 16:34
Vicky is right out i think because of the civ
yeah
so 3 turns downtime
with nothing for the worker to do except pre-farm the floodplain
which isn't worthless
but doesn't have immediate payoff
Dantski 16:35
well after AH you go for BW
so worker will finish farm after
TerrorInc 16:35
yeah true
so that's still pretty good
lots of food early
then whip another worker, !@#$ out settlers/workers
Dantski 16:36
sheep is 3 food tile on that hill?
TerrorInc 16:36
it's 3/2/1 yeah
5/1/1, 3/2/1 and 4/0/1
isn't amazing actually
but with the hills mined
oh hang on
we can mine the hill after the sheep
that's definitely worth it
Dantski 16:37
floodplains doesn't count as unhealthy does it?
TerrorInc 16:38
yeah it does
hmm good point
health might be a concern
and we don't have anything to help with that
Dantski 16:38
does the -0.9 health round up to 1?
TerrorInc 16:38
i think so?
Dantski 16:38
at size 5 we hit health cap
but thats fine
with sheep and wheat
TerrorInc 16:39
yeah we have to hope for grains nearby
which isn't a given
but is likely
hmm yeah maybe Darius is the pick
Dantski 16:39
ok i assume scout to the desert hill north is the immediate move?
TerrorInc 16:40
i'm not sure, i thought I'd throw Cyrus out there because I think for this map it's pretty good, and the civ is excellent
yeah i think so
Dantski 16:40
NE or NW first
TerrorInc 16:40
ideally we have a nice commerce site to the north on the river
Dantski 16:40
can you see hills in tile bleed
TerrorInc 16:40
doesn't matter
oh
hmm
there are no hills to the E
so NW i think
Dantski 16:40
yeah one NW of desert hill
think theres hill 3W of desert too
so NW uncovers that
TerrorInc 16:41
maybe yeah
cant see clearly
Dantski 16:41
is that jungle next to wheat?
TerrorInc 16:41
nah forest
95%
brb
Dantski 16:57
just trying to figure out darius early tech path
the deer tile is only 4/0/0
when improved
was thinking of pottery > AH but that seems low food and production for commerce
seems greedy
or simplest thing is just to do AH > mining > BW

So I think we're leaning towards Darius and crushing Terror's hopes and dreams, just the way I like it!

Assuming nothing changes in our start and leaders this is my initial plan. Numbers in brackets indicate the number of turns for each action, since I suck at civ these may or may not be wrong.

Worker first (12) > Worker 1W and farm for 1t > Worker 1NE farm for 5 turns > Worker goes back to farm for a bit or if tech is faster than these numbers then he can go to hill sheep and work on that

AH (10ish) > Mining (8)

Scout 1NW then 1NE onto desert hill. Priority on getting some river scouting info to N. After that try to loop around clockwise.

[GermanJoey]

Your sim:

http://media.rhizzone.net/civ/pb30.dants...wordWBSave

Notes:

1.) Your starting BFC is cut out of the save as if using a cookie-cutter.
2.) Strategic resources that are hidden from T0 (e.g. copper, iron, etc) are stripped out of this save file.
3.) The map dimensions in the sim are the same as the live game.
4.) Game settings in the sim reflect the game settings for the live game. If a setting is incorrect in the sim, please report it in the tech thread.
5.) The easiest way to change a civ to go into the worldbuilder on T0 and give yourself different starting techs. Changing a leader requires editing the save itself but is actually very simple; please ask if you don't know how to do this.

[Dantski]

Your sim:

http://media.rhizzone.net/civ/pb30.dants...wordWBSave

Notes:

1.) Your starting BFC is cut out of the save as if using a cookie-cutter.
2.) Strategic resources that are hidden from T0 (e.g. copper, iron, etc) are stripped out of this save file.
3.) The map dimensions in the sim are the same as the live game.
4.) Game settings in the sim reflect the game settings for the live game. If a setting is incorrect in the sim, please report it in the tech thread.
5.) The easiest way to change a civ to go into the worldbuilder on T0 and give yourself different starting techs. Changing a leader requires editing the save itself but is actually very simple; please ask if you don't know how to do this.

Thanks! I made a sim for Cyrus based on the rules info but couldn't figure out how to change leaders without making a new game.

Either way expect your work on making the sim to go completely to waste as noob #1 and #2 don't know how to make best use of it!

[v8mark]

Thanks - will likely do some playing around with the sim tonight.

Darius sounds good; I think on balance he's probably the safer pick. The starting techs are what sealed the deal for me - Cyrus of India would have been a power pick as long as we got off to a good start, and I don't think there's any way to get off to a fast enough start here; at least, not one that I can see. Darius is certainly a power pick in pretty much whatever situation.

Priority will be to find a second city that we can begin cottaging, so following rivers to explore seems worthwhile.

[Dantski]

Our opponents picks...

2metraninja
Julius Caesar Viking

I picked Julius in PB2 looking for a fast settling start and his main strengths are building settlers faster and getting discounts on lighthouses and courthouses (factories come too late to plan for).

Vikings get the Berserkers which is an improved Maceman and trading posts which are lighthouses that give Navigation I to ships.

Overall I can only think he got given a coastal start to make use of his fishing/hunting techs and plans to use that for some early-midgame warring. This combo is not particularly strong.

Gavagai
Louis XIV Dutch

Ind/Cre Louis is a solid leader and the Dutch get their unique stuff later in the game. I suspect he got some weak choices and he perceives this as his best option. Fishing/Agri are decent starting techs.

Old Harry
Frederick Egyptian

Fred is a very builder orientated leader with Ind/Org and after already seeing a 2nd Ind leader its going to be difficult to pickup key wonders for us. Egypt has access to War Chariots after a single tech so there's always a threat of this team getting a quick elimination. Alternatively maybe they want to abuse the UB giving them access to 2 Priest specialists. Or maybe this was just their best choice and OH + co don't have a plan beyond play Civ good.

Alhazard
Isabella Sumerian


Spi/Exp is a strong combo and Sumeria is pretty good if you avoid getting axe rushed.

R.E.M.
Wang Kon German

The worst Fin leader of Civ, well he'll tech better than normal but Pro is just soooooo bad. Germany is one of the worst Civs too IMO with a lategame unique unit and building. Hunting/Mining start is weak also.

Molach
Stalin Mongolian

Agg/Ind is an odd combo that doesn't synergise at all. However with the Mongolia choice the plan is pretty damn clear, Keshiks sir, thousands of them. If we start near them keep reminding me to build spears and keep scouting them.

Greywolf
Zara Yaqob Spanish

Cre/Org is good and Spain gets a Cuirassier with an edge vs melee and a slightly better Castle. Myst/Fishing starting techs suck especially since Cre trait lessens the benefits of early religious culture.

Ipecac
Napoleon Native American

I'm always surprised to see Napoleon doesn't have the Agg trait but is Org/Cha, with the civ being NA. NA's main thing is the Dog Soldier beating up all other melee until Maces appear. They are vulnerable to non melee though and are considerably worse at taking cities than regular axes. I'd be surprised if he doesn't look to rush with this combo.

TheWannabe
Elizabeth Arabian

Fin/Phi is extremely good (probably the only one as strong as ours) and Arabia is a below par Civ with an improved library and Knight. The Myst/Wheel starting techs are awful though and I reckon that puts our choice above this one.


So we definitely got the 1st or 2nd best leader and I would argue the best Civ to go with it. In the screenshot we saw someone had Willem as an option (unless that got taken away by the lurkers?) so I'm surprised that that isn't here. Makes me wonder if someone like 2metra just wanted to go all in on the water game instead.

With the combos chosen, how would I rank them 1-10? Assuming the #1 rank means the worst player/team.

#1 - Its us!
#2 - TheWannabe
#3 - Alhazard
#4 - Greywolf
#5 - R.E.M
#6 - Gavagai
#7 - Ipecac
#8 - OH
#9 - 2metra
#10 - Molach

Feel free to laugh at my rankings, I suspect OH was either ranked #1 or #2 so I strongly feel like 2metra didn't pick his best option. Otherwise the only other thing I'll note is that there's a few aggressive looking picks so we'll probably have a short game as everyone wants to stop the Fin/Org train from rolling!

[Commodore]

Fred is actually PHI/ORG

[Dantski]

Fred is actually PHI/ORG

Are you calling him lazy?

[Mardoc]

OK - well in the original set of three I was feeling pretty good that we were around the middle of the road when it comes to ability, and that the lurkers didn't feel that we were outclassed.

Then... we got these picks second time around. These are power picks.

Not going to confirm or deny. But remember:
a) Leader is not the main balancing mechanism
b) Lurkers are probably wrong about some players. Unless we're wrong about everybody!