[pb40 spoiler] Götterdämmerung: Destruction Is The Masses' Entertainment

[Coeurva]

Worse yet, I'd been thinking plains sheep was 3f2h (it's 4f1h) but sandboxing caught the error. It's been a while...

Agree that EXP is mandatory. After some sandboxing, I think that the correct plan is to start Hunting/Mining, tech Fishing (5t) -> Agri (8t) -> BW -> Wheel -> Pottery, build worker -> wb -> warrior. This gets us size3, the second warrior, and three food resources on the beginning of T21. From there we can build 2nd worker, settler, or grow to size4 while sugar is being farmed. What's best may depend on what the map will reveal for 2nd city sites; here's a shoddy example of choosing 2nd worker (ignore that it's Carthage, I edited in HUNT/MIN as starting techs, EXP/ORG traits):




Third worker has just come out. Obviously this can be improved (such as using the workers to road a trade route and get a chop for "Utica" instead of building mines, which will eliminate the 1-beaker shortage shown above) once we have a better idea of the capital's surroundings and what our 2nd city will be like (it's likely not going to take the wheat from the cap), but I think we can get a granary in the capital before T40 and double-whip settlers forever, or get the third settler by eoT40 instead (13fhpt, 2 chops) and then use our workforce to get granaries in three cities by ~T50 (depending on food / forests at cities #2/#3), also double-whipping the fourth settler at capital after granary 2-chop (on the last two forests) and 1-pop whipping the fourth worker at city #2.

Alternative plan is to delay Fishing, pick a Mining civ with either of Agri/Hunt, research the other food tech -> BW which allows the worker to chop right away, delaying the sugar farm. Need to run tests on that too.

e: Agri/Hunting works for starting techs as well. Revised civ selection: Zulu > Khmer (EXP barays) > Russia > Persia = Ethiopia > Germany imo

[OT4E]

Agg-Rome is just cool but how to keep yourself from killing all? Not enough reason to pass through though.

Arabia has not bad UU and UB but wrong starting techs. Also if we just want shrine in game of 6 we can consider henge or oracle. I doubt anyone will pick IND too.

Dutch? No, not this time.

Persia has good starting techs and extremely useful UU. Worth trying.

I'd consider China. Good starting techs but everyone knows what is going to happen. Same downside as Rome.

I'd consider Ottomans. Great draftable UU and not bad UB for EXP.

My ranking (basedon personal preferences, not on strength comparison) is the following: Rome > Persia > Cartage > China > Ottomans > Arabia.

This is the first view. Building up game plan for the first 40 turns can make some adjustments based on early techs we need. Or may be we want to try sone special marginal combo.

[OT4E]

Can you upload sandbox somewhere?

[Coeurva]

I'd like Rome, but Fishing/Mining doesn't work without delaying one of the food worker techs: we can't get them both before T16, which is 1t too late (working 1f2c coast for a turn gets them by T15 but delays the worker and thus growth instead). I think you're right that we can't delay either of Agri/Hunt and have to start with one of them (or both). It doesn't matter which one.

Starting with Mining (or Persia/Zulu which finish BW 2t earlier) is outlined above. Starting with Wheel either delays BW or forces us to ignore Fishing for longer, but I've tried it and it doesn't look much worse:


where the main difference is that we only have three tiles worth working (also a T30 settler). Wheel has the option to research Pottery before Fishing, too. I think I like Mining better than Wheel for the size4 capital working another 2c tile and a better double-whip cycle. But if we want to pick say Ottomans and janissaries/EXP hammams can offset slight losses early, why not. Also we don't lose turns moving the worker onto the wheat and then to the sugar (we could put 2t into a farm even without Wheel but road looks better).

Think I don't like Myst after all -- delaying both BW and Pottery just seems too slow with EXP workers.

Sandbox attached -- it's RtR 2.0.8.4 (as used in PB38), but that only differs from 2.0.8.3 in having no map trading so it shouldn't matter.

[Coeurva]

If we pick Mining and build a work boat and warrior instead of two warriors, we can get a T31 settler instead, because the EXP wb costs 8h more than a warrior and the T30 settler already requires every hammer we can get while not stifling growth. Either way, two warriors, two workers, size3 and a settler by T30 (also Slavery revolt as the settler moves) looks decent. [e: clarified]

I think the decision between Wheel and Mining -- apart from the civs' uniques we'd get -- is down to whether you think a size3 capital with delayed seafood is better than a size4 capital with a delayed second city.

Also Mongolia is Wheel/Hunting... and viable for this start.

So my shortlist changed again and it's Zulu > Mongolia ~= Ottomans > Khmer > Ethiopia > Persia, you can change it as you wish. I think an EXP baray is stronger than immortal + apothecary even if the ballistaphant can be assumed blank. Ethiopia has a cool draftable UU as well, just ask Dark Savant. I like both Mongolia and the Ottomans, both can be used for a Knights/Gunpowder attack but Mongolia is more flexible for deciding when to attack (HA also possible), whereas EXP Ottomans can whip and draft a whole lot more, basically gives us the CHM trait later on.

[OT4E]

T29 settler if we start chopping right after pasture and wheat farm. I dont see much reason in delaying settler to farm sugar or make workboat, because settler will probably go for 6-yield tile. If we just chop and revolt slavery the 2nd settler will be ready by T33.

[OT4E]

T30 settler and 2 workers with Rome. Had to skip hunting though.

or this is better:

[OT4E]

It is fallacy to think that you cant use HA-rush with Ottomans. I think exactly opposite, that the element of surprise is the best and the most overpowered UU. While you cant rush anyone with numids, so I think about keshiks. However Ottomans is the most possible pragmatic, so pragmatic that I am already sick of it.

Khmers I would not recommend either. The start doesnt look to be very lushy, but what I have learnt about RB maps is that they are rich. Your start capital location is balanced but to the left there are always good spots to settle, same to the right and to the south I am sure. What's in the north? Coast? Not worth exploring you say? But beyond it there are juicy islands, do you doubt? So to my experience when you settle 2 food it can still be suboptimal here. And what differs it from original maps is that in the last there are areas not good for settling, like jungles without food, tundra with few sea resources or places with too many hills. Here I expect every tile to be possible to make use of. So unlikely the sitation where +1 food per city for 50 hammers makes much difference can occur. I always tell myself to make 1 green farm and have the same effect.

Apothecary is almost nothing. The main advantage of persia is immortal. It is ideal unit for zone control. 2 movers can never have defense bonus and nobody can rush you with spears except probably zulu. Axes+immortals can be very annoying if they get into your forests treatening much more spots than common slow stacks can. From the other side common archer defense will not work against you so your neighbors will have to equip their fronts with spears and you can just come back with swords. Needless to mention that those RtR swords are insane.

So my preferences are still:
Rome -> Persia -> Anything else.

[Coeurva]

Nice improvements. I'm assuming we need to take Hunting/Mining or Persia for the first, since otherwise we can't get BW by the time the wheat farm finishes. Other than that, looks like the best opening plan yet, unless scouting reveals that overlapping the wheat is correct (let's say we pick up a metal lux plus a new food first-ring if we settle 444 of capital), in which case I'd consider farming sugar and indeed doing a T30 -> T34 settler rush, as long as nobody's poking us with early units above archer strength. The settler for city #3 can always be double-chopped + whipped right after finishing the #2 settler by double-chop in any scenario (the T30 wheel thing I played can do that as well), I just doubt we'll get away with that since if we settle for a 6fh tile, we should also aim to improve it right away.

Fishing/Mining: I like that you managed a T29 settler but if the scout fails to defend the settler for any reason, the game is over for us, I think that's too risky -- it happened to (spoiler warning for an ongoing Civ4 pitboss, not saying which one here to keep info leak to a minimum, don't open if you're still alive in either):

2metraninja in PB38.

T30 while having a warrior looks very solid. We needn't even produce the second warrior, I think we should shoot straight for the third worker, because it will arrive right as Pottery finishes.

The trade-off I see about the EXP baray is that it saves 5t of worker labour in exchange for a double-whip, so workers don't have to linger at mostly-developed cities. But that choice being not aware of map expectations makes sense.

Agree that the immortal keeps in check any civ that isn't Zulu, but Persia gets strictly outclassed by Zulu, which we have a 40% chance of being neighbours to. Not pulled from thin air, that's the exact probability assuming two (land) neighbours (and that Zulu get picked 100% of the time) in a game with six teams. That's why I hesitate to pick Persia here.

The greatest surprise we can bring to this field is that we haven't consigned ourselves to eternal war with one of our neighbours by T50. I like the idea of Rome or Korea/China where, no matter what we do, I'm sure the uniques will be relevant, which also ensures that surprise stays on our side. (Hwacha + RtR swords removes everything on city assault imo; swords punish archers/mounted and hwacha everything else.) Even AGG Rome doesn't have to praet rush. If their mere threat scares our neighbours into overbuilding axes, then all the better. Korea/China also save some beakers with Agri/Fishing tradeoff.

So here's my compromise: Zulu > Rome > Carthage ~ Korea > (Ottomans) > Persia. You can remain firm on vetoing the Ottomans. I admit I'd like to play them but I won't if they bore you. Of course, if Rome, I'd like to play AGG or CHM, not sure about the order but I'm starting to think that CHM is very good with this capital, goes well with my current T40 granary obsession, and CR praets wouldn't gain much from AGG (defensive praets would, though). Generic order is Mehmed > Shaka > Washington > Isabella and I won't even jinx us about the rest this time, most people should pick civ first anyway.

e: Charriu took China.

[OT4E]

>>>Zulu outclasses Persia
I do notcompletely agree. Zulu is better because of ikhanda. But neighboring Zulu will not make your UU useless. Well may be if you are going to make immortal stack against impi stack it will work like you say. But if you play normally you will not have much discomfort. Mobile defenders will still play their role.

>>>Double-whip barray saves you 5 worker turns.
This is wrong thought!
1) first of all even if it does you must put all efforts you can to develop new cities by anything you could bring from outsides, from better developed cities. So if you can make workboat you'd better bring it to new settling site but not produce it in new city.

2) barrays are not worth double-whipping. If you sacrifice 2 citizens to make barray it will require something like ~25 turns to restore them (lets say 12+13 food to grow from 2 to 4)

3) in the middle game you always have choice what to build in the city: forge or barray? courthouse or barray? library or barray? Each time you will have to put on the weights something which will only pay off in food vs something pays of in area you need.

Barrays are not useless but very situational and in most cases you build them in the big cities which could use 1 extra green farm without forcing you to make the choice I described above over and over.

Back to the discussion, I am not vetoing anything. I played Ottomans in pb34 and it left a little feeling of boredom after. I cant deny you playing them. Also I think it is a shame that noone has played Rome with those uber rtr swords. Also my personality and gameplay style are demanding something like it. It will be challenging, wont it?

But for me it is always hard decision because I want to try different thing therefore I prefer not to have choice and go random.

Anyway I will support any your decision. Or we can take a look what is left.