[49 spoilers] Miguelito, pindicator and Adrien take Shiva by the hands

[RefSteel]

Starting Screen:

   

The fog and corner (i.e. non-BFC) tiles might possibly still change, but should actually be at least roughly accurate at this point.

Let me know in the tech thread if the image isn't visible or something. I won't be reading players' threads until I'm finished with the rest of the map: I actually asked a non-civ playing, non-forum member friend randomize the starting images and am posting them without looking at them to be sure knowledge of different players won't influence the way I try to balance things. That's probably more extreme than necessary, but I'll also enjoy the surprise when the map is fully finished and I finally find out which screens are whose!

[Miguelito]

Starting Screen:



The fog and corner (i.e. non-BFC) tiles might possibly still change, but should actually be at least roughly accurate at this point.

Let me know in the tech thread if the image isn't visible or something.  I won't be reading players' threads until I'm finished with the rest of the map:  I actually asked a non-civ playing, non-forum member friend randomize the starting images and am posting them without looking at them to be sure knowledge of different players won't influence the way I try to balance things.  That's probably more extreme than necessary, but I'll also enjoy the surprise when the map is fully finished and I finally find out which screens are whose!

again thanks Ref, and that's a lot of dedication!


Now this is... not a very Babylonian start (or is it? at least the early granary would get lots of food with two fishes. But we would surely run into trouble techwise, needing fishing, mining and BW asap. I will run a test with Justin/Izzy of Babylon, but I'm doubtful). So let's play the hand we were dealt.

First thing - I have to confess that I'm not quite firm with how a seafood start should be played, but I recall that the common wisdom is to still go worker first, then chop out the workboats, is that correct? Also, with two early workboats needed, EXP is gaining power compared to IMP, right? Or do we say that the settlers are still neded all the same, so bonus hammers on that are still as good?


On the two main topics:

Traits - do we want/need FIN here? The start seems to direct us towards a naval empire, where better coast would surely be welcomed. Now as I said I do want SPI, but Mansa looks like a really slow starter - can you think of a civ that would help us in the early game enough that we could do with FIN/SPI? Else I'm open towards Vicky or Pacal. Or we decide that we don't need the coast as much and stay with Justin/Izzy.

Civs with fishing/mining are: Carthage, England, Portugal, Rome. I don't think we should consider England, and probably neither Portugal, both of which get their uniques quite late, if the map is as tight as I'm expecting.

Carthage: Fishing/Mining. UB: Harbour replacement: Cothon. +1 trade route. UU: Horse Archer replacement. Numidian Cavalry. +35% against melee, -35% against spearmen.

Rome: Fishing/Mining. UB: Market replacement: Forum. +35% GPP. UU: Sword replacement. Strength 7, cost 40 hammers.

• Carthage's Cothon is buffed, as harbours now give naval xp, which translates into the easily accessible Navigation promotions in this mod. That's somewhat less relevant when you're SPI and can take Vassalage/Theocracy when it's needed (though with both of these and the harbour you get 6 xp boats!). The Numids' bonus doesn't sound too awesome... I suppose they are good at killing axes? Also I played Carthage in my other game (not really a relevant factor in the decision making)
  
• Pretorians off boats are strong, but you probably want to be AGG for that? The Forum is also not too shabby*.
  

* Note that it's a rather bad pairing with PHI. Non-Phi cities without other GP bonuses (Parthenon, HE) get their GPP yield increased by a whole third, while for RtR Phi that's just 2.85/2.5-1 = 14%. Same goes for Parthenon fwiw, and HE, though the HE bonus is so big it's surely still worth it at some point in a dedicated city.

Both of these want EXP for their UB, so Izzy or Pacal?

The other "naval" civs are Dutch (late) and

Vikings: Hunting/Fishing. UB: Lighthouse replacement: Trading Post. Builds water units +25% faster. UU: Maceman replacement: Berserker. Starts with Amphibious.

Both uniques seem pretty good. If we expand east and end up with a significant amount of island cities, most of those will want a lighthouse. The Berserker is awesome as long as not just we but also our neighbours are coastal.

Other civs with either Mining or fishing that I found (somewhat) interesting are:

Ethiopia: Hunting/Mining. UB: Monument replacement. 1 Merchant slot; gives sentry to units built in this city. UU: Musket replacement. Oromo warrior. Starts with Drill 2 and Drill 4.

India: Mysticism/Mining. UB: Granary replacement: Harrapan Granary, +1 happy, +1 health, cost 45 hammers, no bonus production from trait. UU: Pike replacement. Urukku Pikeman. Strength 8.

Mali: The Wheel/Mining. UB: Forge replacement: Mint. +10% gold, +10% beakers. UU: Archer replacement. Skirmisher. Strength 4, -40% against archers.

Native America: Fishing/Agriculture. UB: Monument replacement: Totem Pole. +3XP to Archery units, +1XP to Gunpowder units. Obsoletes at Assembly Line. UU: scout replacement. Tracker. Starts with Woodsman 3, can create Totem Pole. Upgrades to Explorer and musketman

Ethiopia enables a currency bulb, which could actually be quite strong with IMP/EXP (fast expansion / cheap markets) and SPI (delayed upper side of the tree). Free sentry on at least some units in the army could also be quite strong. Of course, if we're SPI, we shouldn't build more than one of those monuments (to give ourselves currency). The UU seems rather irrelevant, it can be drafted though.

India has a very strong UB and a pretty strong UU (and Engineering was buffed, as privateers are now there). Mysticism doesn't hurt if we're SPI. I expect it to be taken though by the time it's our turn in the snake.

Mali: the Skirmisher should at least keep us save during the early game. The UB is maybe good with IND (of course, you want lots of forges eventually, but they may come quite late). Seems like a pretty desperate pick?

NA could be good if we're not SPI? Have to see whether fishing without mining means that we have to go WB first (as we wouldn't get BW in time) and how bad that is.


further observations/issues to discuss:

1. With six capital forests, and I think more appearing in the fog, I think IMP and EXP do get enough hammers to bring us ahead if we choose them.
   
2. The capital will be hammer starved long term though. Do 11 coast tiles justifiy a Moai capital? Depends of course on which other spots we find.
   
3. Sharing the western fish with the second city seems attractive. Bonus if it can also take the FP and grassland to help with cottage growth. We should get the relevant spots scouted within the first 10 turns.
   
4. That cow is calling for early sailing. 1E of it seems promising, sharing the capital fish. When do we aim for that, as early as city 4? Of course again that depends on what we find on the main continent
   
5. Speaking of, I think the scout should move SW-SW onto the grass first, as I gaze all forests adjacent to the riverside hill
   
6. For the sandbox, I have to get the map size right, which can be edited in the WB file, correct? Actual map dimensions (snd wrap) also count for maintenance calculations after the second city. Anything else I'm missing?
   

 


Going to set up a sandbox now and see if I play a run for the first settler or two. Right now, I'm really unsure how we should approach this start, so looking forward to the discussion!

[Miguelito]

Ok, I've simmed a bit with Justinian of Babylon. It... doesn't feel great

First variant is getting one fish hooked, then straight for the settler coming out on t28, without a whip



With both fishes hooked i can 1-pop whip the settler to come out t30 (that worker could be preparing city 2 as well instead of chopping, and the Garden might not necessarily be a good choice here):



or 2pop whip for settler on t32 with 21 overflow, to get the Garden or worker/settler running (this is quite badly played, that 2nd mine looks really stupid and could be a chop):



finally if I ignore building workboats I can whip a settler for t24 but have nothing else:



It's quite ugly; the workboat comes 2t early for fishing; the worker has to start out building a mine (or that FP farm )

I think I like option 2 best; 1 feels bad for not taking advantage of the whip (I don't think I'd want to whip down to size 1 though?).
Izzy doesn't make sense with Babylon - faster Worker and WBs only worsen the lagging tech.
Tech was always BW->Fishing->Polytheism

So let's compare this tomorrow to some sims with better suited civs. The sandbox is attached if you want to try something

[AdrienIer]

I have been summoned from the darkness by Miguelito.

I'm rusty.

Hi everyone

[AdrienIer]

So I looked at some of the new stuff in the mod and at the starting position. Here are a few thoughts :

Map cries for mining and for Imp IMO.
Exp is slightly worse because of the floodplain and the river cow that are really good initial tiles but don't allow for a bonus hammer on the first worker.
Chopping settlers with Imp is a feeling that can never be surpassed.
So Spi/Imp of Portugal ? But maybe Portugal is too late, even if feitorias would be lovely in this capital.
What we know of the map indicates multiple landmasses overall even if players all start on the same one, so viking remains an option (hunting allows you to make use of the cow but it will take millions of years to access it, so meh)
Praets on galleys ? So maybe Rome.
Carthage rings a bell Quite nice with the capital on the coast

[pindicator]

Fishing isn't quite a must because you can build work boats without the tech, and it will be 6 turns to both build a work boat and tech Fishing. You may not even have to do Fishing if you want to go EXP, though you would have to sit on that opening work boat. In fact, I don't think you HAVE to go Fishing first if you want to go straight for Bronze Working and whip out a settler because you're going to need a worker before you get that settler anyway.

So if you were to just pick say an Myst/Agr leader since that seems to be the worst pairing out there, you'd have an opening that looks something like:

t0 - work the plains hill, start Fishing and a work boat
t5 - work boat finishes, Fishing finishes eot
t6 - connect work boat, work the fish, start a warrior
end of t10 - grow to 2, mining finishes
t11 - work boat & plains hill to finish warrior
t12 - start worker - except, what does he do? This is where the starting techs come in. Probably agriculture or wheel?
eot18 - finish worker; start settler
eot23 - bronze working finishes
t26 - whip settler


Hmmm, it's ugly too - not too dissimilar than your sim Miguelito. Except i think it's important that we go work boat and Fishing first (if not starting tech) because nothing else we can do competes with a 5f2c tile. Actually we have no other option for a bonus resource until Sailing.

Which gives me an idea... what if we delay that worker and just go double fishing boat?

t0 - work the plains hill, start Fishing and a work boat
t5 - work boat finishes, Fishing finishes eot
t6 - connect work boat, work the fish, start a warrior
end of t10 - grow to 2, mining finishes
t11 - work boat & plains hill to finish warrior
t12 - start 2nd work boat
end of t17 - 2nd work boat finishes; grow to 3
t18 - start settler @ 11 food-hammers per turn
t19 - hook up 2nd fish
eot20 - bronze working finishes
t23 - whip settler


So you get the settler t24, are size 2, have 2 improved fishing nets... and a settler that probably has to share a fishing net with the capital. OR perhaps it could be that we delay that first settler by 5 turns and get a worker out after the pair of work boats and then we'll have proper worker support for a 2nd city? Perhaps we really do need EXP for this start...

[Miguelito]

welcome back from the mists Adrien, and thanks for your thoughts. Yes, I'd also like IMP as a trait to get us through the early game. As said, I'm not too hot on Portugal.
Thanks pindicator for the suggestions. I am warming up very much to fishing first, as otherwise you always run into an ungly spot where your worker/WB is there without something too useful to do. Edit: Btw I'm not excited for any of the non-mining/fishing civs, independent of starting techs. Other than Babylon, and that was thankfully taken early to remove the temptation Open to suggestions though ofc, it's always possible I'm not seeing something...


With that in mind, I simmed Justinian of India:

eot 6 fishing + WB, fish hooked t7
t 11 pop 2
eot 14 2nd wb, fish hooked t16, start worker
eot 16 BW
eot 19 whip worker (to size 1)
eot 20 warrior
eot 21 grow to size 2 (on another warrior?)
t 22 start settler
eot 24 chop
eot 25 whip settler (to size one)

I like the early whipping, SPI proving its worth
non-IMP (Mansa?) can whip or chop the settler on t27. The second 1pop whip hurts, as it leaves the food box empty and a fish unworked. But provided we have a good spot, city 2 can pick it up 2 turns later.




*greedily I picked Polytheism, ingame we should slot in a worker tech first to time it with the second city's founding. India's mysticism is nice here. Another perk of India: With privateers at engineering, we'd get awesome units on land and water. Well it probably will be taken before the snake gets to us. The sim is of course valid for every mining/x civ and equivalenty for fishing/x, so of those mentioned in my previous post:

Vikings
Ehtiopia
India
(Mali and NA aren't really serious)

I'll do a mining/fishing sim now, this time with EXP (without both techs, I think EXP exacerbates the problem of the workers coming before their techs)

What are your thoughts on how big of an  error we're making if we forego FIN? Choosing Mansa tells everybody we want to be eaten, and early, doesn't it?

[Miguelito]

simmed Izzy of Rome:

eot 5 WB, fish hooked t6
t 10 pop 2 --> 2 turns fgh, 2 turns fph
eot 13 2nd wb, fish hooked t15, start worker
eot 12 BW
eot 16 whip worker (to size 1), start chopping, grow back eot
eot 20 warrior (with chop), grow to size 3
t 21 start settler
eot 24 chop
eot 25 whip settler (to size two)




hands down the best and most fluent start; compared to Justinian of Mining above, we have one more capital citizen; it also all fits together nicely, without having to dump hammers into a warrior or the like. As a variant, we can save the last chop to build a mine instead, whipping the settler eot 26 and with 7h less overflow, but the mine and one remaining forest.

Do we value Rome or Carthage* higher? I think Rome has the better UU but Carthage the better UB. Or would you argue for Portugal?


I think India is really strong and might be woth the worse start. Maybe even Ethiopia with the currency bulb? Maybe, if just the UU was better... Edit: Vikings may also still be a candidate



*Oops, that's been taken already

[Miguelito]

current state of the picks:

1) Commodore - JAPAN
2) Raskolnikov / Rusten - CARTHAGE
3) Cornflakes / giraflorens - BABYLON
4) Mr. Cairo - PERSIA
5) Elkad - JOAO
6) Fintourist / et al - UP
7) Superdeath / GKC - ON DECK
8) Ruff_Hi
9) Miguelito / pindicator

9) Miguelito / pindicator
8) Ruff_Hi
7) Superdeath / GKC
6) Fintourist / et al
5) Elkad
4) Mr. Cairo
3) Cornflakes / giraflorens
2) Raskolnikov / Rusten
1) Commodore

[Miguelito]

so Rome's also taken. I still doubt Portugal is a good pick, despite the good techs. I noticed that Vikings can be played with Izzy just fine probably with a 2 WB start, I'll sim tonight to confirm that.
That leaves me with the shortlist:
- Justinian of India (or Ethiopia)
- Isabel or Justinian of Vikings
We'll probably have to submit our pick tonight, so it would be nice to hear your opinions on those. Also, the issue whether we should ditch SPI in favour of FIN (I don't think that Mansa's viable). That would change plans pretty much, as the current plans rely on very early whips, but I am doubting whether it isn't the better approach anyways.