RB Pitboss #2 [SPOILERS] - Pacal II of Greece! (Jowy & Yazilliclick)

[Jowy]

We occasionally play ultimate with my friends. We go out there to the field and we can pretty much explain the rules in a couple of sentences for those who are new. Then we play and have fun. Just cause the rules didn't say that you can't spit on others or kick them in their nuts doesn't mean you should. It's very obvious to everyone without telling. And they don't do that because they just want to have fun, although we do have competition. You get my point?

Yeah I realised I just got involved. Kinda. Sigh. And I even put "IF" in my sentence in the IT thread, yet it was still seen as me claiming they did break the rules

[shadyforce]

I see your point but that only works where it is obvious whether something is within or against the spirit of the rules. But something always comes up that's not obvious and some people think it should be legal and some people think it shouldn't be. And your relaxed and simplified rules set don't work so well in that case.

[Jowy]

Ah well. I'm not here to discuss boring rules, I'm here to play. Besides, I didn't expect them to make Byzantine delete the unit anyway, not when it means Ottomans would beat them quicker and become a threat to everyone else Which btw is one of the bad sides of changing rules mid-game.

Let's take a look at next set of e-mails, again quoted is from Dantski's reply to me and below it is what I answered.

Luke Offer <dpantski@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hey Jowy
>
> Yes I would like to go through with it, I will ask for a 15 turn NAP
> extension. I would suggest that you don't do this because 2 identical NAP's
> negotiated at the same time with their neighbours might make them
> suspicious.
>
> Spulla + HRE do have contact although neither has mentioned the other to me
> in their emails.
>
> -Dantski

[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Hey Dantski,

Sounds good. I agree that I shouldn't. I think I can stall them for maybe 10 turns if they ask for a NAP, but they'll probably get alerted if it takes that long for me to agree. But if we've had 30ish turns to build up military, then there's no way that they can match that in just 5 turns, especially because there's two of us and only one of them. Though we can't underestimate them, they might suspect something even earlier and start cranking up units. We'll see. I still think it's worth a risk of course

I think they might have met just a little while ago, because Sullla asked me to direct HRE scout towards them a few turns ago. Anyway minor details, I was merely using that as an example how badly things might turn out if we go passive when we have the odds.

~ Jowy[/COLOR]

[Jowy]

[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Hello dear Byzantines.

I'll get right to the business Sorry to tell you this, but we aren't getting involved in the war against Ottomans. We've only just met them and have really nothing against them. Don't take this as anything personal, but I don't trust that you would just becomes our vassal and help us win even if we did get involved. You said it yourself, "ramblings of a broken and defeated old man", that's how this all sounds to me. Anyway if we ignore all the diplomacy aspects, which are ever changing, then it would make more sense to have Ottomans as a neighbour because their starting location is far away from us, while yours is very close. And on top of that, we are going full out economy, we couldn't send units even if we wanted.

We're pretty tight with India, though I've heard nothing of this 3-way alliance you brought up. It'd be a bit awkward considering that you wanted us to go aggressive against India, and India wanted us to go aggressive against you :D It'd be a good deal for you, you would get help against Ottomans. It would be a good deal for India, they would still have one way to attack. I'd be stuck in the middle. Sounds more like 2-way alliance to me!

Good luck with the war.
~ Jowy[/COLOR]

Hi Jowy,

Don't worry about the time delay in answering, both Athlete and I are also
quite busy at times. It may be worth in the future, if possible, to send
just a quick: "I got your message", but that's not a big deal.
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]
Sorry for taking my time with the reply and my vote, last few days have been
a little hectic. Anyway, basics of that deal sound very good. I'm not sure
about the nearly 1:1 ratio in hammers, merely because while making a worker
our cities can't grow, so I'd say they are worth more than another unit that
costs the same. Small details though, I think we can come up with a definite
number when we see how much you have left
[/COLOR]

That sounds good. I honestly believe that deal is fair but we can discuss,
because it is indeed complicated. Sure, cities don't grow while producing
workers, but you are expansive, and workers also use food not only hammers
which are harder to come by (unless one whips and things become more
complex). I am sure we'll find a deal to make us both happy.

[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Thanks for letting us know first. We might have a need for those Horse
Archers. This is extremely confidential btw, please don't let anything leak.
I know I didn't leak your information when you told me of your situation.
You wanted us to go for India, that might happen. We might have caught them
up playing many sides at once, and our side would be the one they would
betray once they are ready. We don't intend to let them get ready. We're
still confirming all this though. You might get your wish fulfilled
Anyway, please keep this to yourself! It's extremely important at this
point.[/COLOR]


Again, let me reassure you that we will keep this information confidential.

While we want you to do something about India if possible, we also want you
to be and stay strong which is why we advise caution. We are suggesting that
you may try to find an additional ally should you (when ) go to war with
India.

We would help you in this endeavor of course, however we are far and it will
take time for units to arrive. The most likely help is that we can give you
our remaining troops from the Byz war upfront and we can discuss payment
after (we would be fair and reasonable).

[COLOR="PaleGreen"]
I wish you good luck in your war against the Byzantine. We got our first
diplo messages from them like 3 days after the war started. My uneducated
but accurate guess would be that they were afraid that I would immediatly
pile on them. Looks like they think NAP's are made to be broken, I don't
though But let us know what's going on there and if there's anything we can
help with.[/COLOR]


Thanks for your wishes. At the moment there's not much help we need. The
only thing I am thinking is that they could get a gift of copper say from
India. In that case, if you have open borders with India, we'd ask you to
close them so as to break the trade routes. This is hypothetical of course.

We would now like to propose you something that would come close to an
alliance. We hope we are not coming forward too strong in this respect, but
we have had very good relations, and I think we can work very well together.
Here are some things we can do for each other:

* Help each other in wars (defensive and offensive).

* Coordinate research. This is somewhat important: imagine we both want to
do IW and HBR. We shouldn't both do IW and HBR in the same time, but rather
when one does IW the other does HBR, this way we both benefit from a small
bonus. We would also share information about techs we already have and tech
plans. Also once we get currency we can help each other with gold: for
example, you need one tech quickly, then we'd feed you gold so that you can
go 100% research, then you'd feed us gold.

* Exchange and lend each other units.

* More minor things: open borders, trade resources preferentially,
exchanging map and diplomatic info (we'd still be bound by confidentiality
agreements to other parties, but we can ask permission to share).

Given some of the incidents in RBP1 we would strongly want for this alliance
to remain secret, assuming of course you'd want to go for it. If it's too
much too soon, we understand, we can keep friendly relations and come back
to this at a later time.

Let us know if you have any suggestions of your own.

Kalin for Team A/K of the Ottomans

Hey Kalin & Athlete!

That sounds good. I honestly believe that deal is fair but we can discuss,
because it is indeed complicated. Sure, cities don't grow while producing
workers, but you are expansive, and workers also use food not only hammers
which are harder to come by (unless one whips and things become more
complex). I am sure we'll find a deal to make us both happy.

Sure, but the expansive bonus only applies to hammers, not food. That's a bit problematic in this map due to lack of production tiles, atleast around my lands. Anyway we can discuss the details later on, and I don't really think it needs to be 100% balanced if we're really going to ally as you suggested!

While we want you to do something about India if possible, we also want you
to be and stay strong which is why we advise caution. We are suggesting that
you may try to find an additional ally should you (when ) go to war with
India.
We would help you in this endeavor of course, however we are far and it will
take time for units to arrive. The most likely help is that we can give you
our remaining troops from the Byz war upfront and we can discuss payment
after (we would be fair and reasonable).
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]
This is exactly what I had in mind. It'd be essential that we get them fast and don't need to spend time making workers until later on. Thanks for the advise, but I'm really much better prepared that you'd think Unfortunately I can't tell you the details at this moment, but no worries. Really.[/COLOR]

Thanks for your wishes. At the moment there's not much help we need. The
only thing I am thinking is that they could get a gift of copper say from
India. In that case, if you have open borders with India, we'd ask you to
close them so as to break the trade routes. This is hypothetical of course.
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]
Neither of us writing yet, I think. No open borders anyway. Besides I really doubt that India would send their copper to Byzantine. They've only known for a while and I've scouted India's lands: There's only one copper. If they're really so comfortable that they would send off their only source of copper, then we've done our job very well :D[/COLOR]

We would now like to propose you something that would come close to an
alliance. We hope we are not coming forward too strong in this respect, but
we have had very good relations, and I think we can work very well together.
Here are some things we can do for each other:
* Help each other in wars (defensive and offensive).
* Coordinate research. This is somewhat important: imagine we both want to
do IW and HBR. We shouldn't both do IW and HBR in the same time, but rather
when one does IW the other does HBR, this way we both benefit from a small
bonus. We would also share information about techs we already have and tech
plans. Also once we get currency we can help each other with gold: for
example, you need one tech quickly, then we'd feed you gold so that you can
go 100% research, then you'd feed us gold.
* Exchange and lend each other units.
* More minor things: open borders, trade resources preferentially,
exchanging map and diplomatic info (we'd still be bound by confidentiality
agreements to other parties, but we can ask permission to share).
Given some of the incidents in RBP1 we would strongly want for this alliance
to remain secret, assuming of course you'd want to go for it. If it's too
much too soon, we understand, we can keep friendly relations and come back
to this at a later time.
Let us know if you have any suggestions of your own.

[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Let's do it. It's very good to have an ally, and to be honest I trust your team much more than my early neighbours. Hopefully that won't be my downfall in this game If we manage to get rid of both Byzantine and India, which would be HUGE, we'd damn sure be in control of this game together. If you'll have my back I'll have yours :P I think the biggest threat to any team in this game is attack from both sides. If we truly work together, we eliminate that threat. That will give us huge leverage over other teams in the game. I hope this works out.

Back to details. Warring aid is naturally a good idea. Good road-network will be necessary though, we're quite far away from eachother (but that's also a good thing, lots of good land to settle!). Research bonus isn't really worth it, but I think we can share what we're researching anyway once we're on that level of trust. Would be a bigger thing if tech trading wasn't turned off. Unit exchanges are OK to me, but I doubt we'll have very much of use for that. Agreed on minor things also.
Well tbh we don't need no list, I think it's pretty clear that if we both help eachother then we both gain benefits off it I give thumbs up to an alliance. Real alliance, like the one you described. Yet the actual actions are still far away and many puzzle pieces are not yet in place.

Oh. One more thing.

"I actually think that this has the opportunity to bring our 2 civs CLOSER
together, rather than driving a wedge between us. Obviously, it's not in
your best interests to see a dominant Ottoman power with twice the land of
anyone else. And since we have been crippled and hamstrung with very little
chance of actually winning the game, we are much less of a threat to you and
IMO make the perfect allies. I can see it very likely down the road that we
would do all that we could to support your candidacy for world domination,
as long as it is at the expense of the Ottomans. You have much less to fear
from us than say the IKZers, who are going to be one of your prime
competitors for winner in this game.

What all have you heard from Sullla of the Indians? They have contacted us
and our relations are decent. They spoke highly of you guys and we threw
out the idea of maybe some sort of cooperation between our 3 nations. I
don't know what your thoughts are on that, or how close they are to your
borders if it would even make sense or not."

We subtly declined this, downplaying our connection. We had a chance to take you out, hopefully you'll remember this down the road. We chose you over the two of them Btw as kind of related note, can you give us and details on how the war is actually going? I'm very curious and it would help to my coordinating of this whole situation. Anyway if you're really taking them down like you've assured, it shouldn't matter that much at this point.

Waiting forwards to your reply. Sorry for a bit long and complicated post, but I think it's necessary at this point. Btw as usual please keep all this confidental, especially our alliance and the fact that I told you about Byzantine plans.

~ Jowy[/COLOR]

I've rolled my dice. It's upto Lady Luck now! There's a few things I'm afraid in this alliance with Ottomans. Firstly, I get the feeling that they're in really good terms with Incans. In that case they could turn on us once there's no more free land to settle. Secondly, I don't yet know if they're really doing as good against Byzantine as they say. Thirdly, there's no telling how well will my campaign against India go. One thing I have to say though, if we take out both teams of Regoarrar/Sunrise/Darrelljjs and Sullla/Speaker, that's just freaking insane

While everything in paper is going good atm, problem is that we aren't the only one playing. Others will give it their best shot. Expect the unexpected. That's the only way to prepare.

[Jowy]

Dear Jowy,

Don't worry about it, this is a very busy time of the year, and we've also
been feeling an overload of diplomacy from contacting more teams. Thanks to
your directions, we were able to find a scout from Whosit this turn, and we
can see the borders of Nakor so that we'll make contact next turn. Still
looking for Broker and plako, but they can't be too far away either!

As you said in your last message, we have indeed found you to be a man of
honor and integrity. I hope that you view us in the same light! It's
unquestionable that our cooperation thus far has allowed us both to get
ahead of the teams that are locked in destructive warfare. Indeed, we may
both be able to expand into territory that would have belonged to sunrise,
had he not been slowed by warfare. There's a lot of nice unclaimed land to
our northeast and your east. I feel bad for sunrise, of course, but our
teams might both end up profiting handsomely from the Byzantine/Ottoman war,
if we can both get a larger share of the land without needing to fight
anyone.

Our third city is located near our capital. We pledged it would not be
founded in an aggressive spot, and we kept our word!

Cheers,
Sullla
The Killer Angels

Nah, you aren't settling there Breaks my heart to plan an attack on them while they're being so friendly. But you have to make big moves in this game, or atleast give it your best try. And I've already explained my reasons, so nevermind about those.

[Ilios]

Any updates? Been a while since you've posted something...

[Jowy]

Any updates? Been a while since you've posted something...

Alot. I had to take a small break from the thread, it was taking too much time and so thriving me away from the game. I'll construct a huge email dump and an overview write-up of the game during my christmas break.

[BobRoberts]

Looking forward to that one!

If you don't mind me asking, how much of a timesink are you finding this game?

[Shoot the Moon]

Alot. I had to take a small break from the thread, it was taking too much time and so thriving me away from the game. I'll construct a huge email dump and an overview write-up of the game during my christmas break.

Thanks! It's been interesting trying to piece together what you've been doing from emails that other teams posted, but it doesn't really amount to the same thing as being able to see your true thinking (and also builds and such).

[Jowy]

Looking forward to that one!

If you don't mind me asking, how much of a timesink are you finding this game?

1-2 hours a day. The game itself doesn't take very long, maybe 15 minutes a day at this point of the game. Diplomacy is a huge timesink! It takes time to read, to read behind the lines, to decide what to write back and to actually write back a good reply.. The latter one especially hard for me because English isn't my mother language, sometimes others can read behind the lines easily like when Rego noticed that my tone had cooled down. I think there's a big difference on how I handled diplomacy early on in the game than now, I've learned alot and I'm better at it. Back on topic , if you go in-depth like having an infamous "cloak & dagger" document then this game will totally consume you

Thanks! It's been interesting trying to piece together what you've been doing from emails that other teams posted, but it doesn't really amount to the same thing as being able to see your true thinking (and also builds and such).

I can imagine I know I've rarely explained e-mails even when I did post them, but I think about this stuff all the time. It'd take a lot of time.