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Irgy · April 19th, 2011, 06:31

It's clear WK and Nyktorion are pretty close, not something they've told me as such but not something they've exactly denied either. I'm not bothered about it particularly. Right now, it's probably a good thing, since with Thoth as out of control as he appears to be a united eastern front is going to be critical.

Thoth hasn't sounded particularly friendly, but I'm not really expecting much from him anyway. I'm kind of safe behind the Elohim for now in any case. I just hope Mardoc isn't in cahoots with him and planning a naval launch, as that will be game over. Not necessarily so much because I can't fight off Mardoc (though I'd certainly prefer not to have to given the geography), but because it would give us next to no chance of bringing Thoth under control.

Irgy · April 20th, 2011, 06:14

So, I'm back. Had a look around, happy with how Lord Parkin's looked after things. In hindsight a carinval wasn't the best choice for the capital, would rather it was a granary/smokehouse, since it's reaching health cap before happy now. Otherwise everything's good, if not better even than what I'd have done. I decided LP was right that I really need to build a settler in Grottiburg, I'm going to fall too far behind in development otherwise.

Here's an overview of my cities now:
[Image: civ4screenshot0458.jpg]

And some graphs:

The Malakim really are getting out of control at the moment. I don't think they're unstoppable just yet, but something needs to be done.

Lord Parkin · April 20th, 2011, 15:08

Yeah, in hindsight I didn't take into account how much the happy cap would be raised over a mere few turns due to other factors. Oh well. Glad to hear you thought I did a mostly alright job anyway. smile

Got a brief message from Thoth:

Quote:Hi LP,

Thanks for shifting your warrior.

Water walking units are a fun toy and quite handy for scouting (barb sea monsters are a lot more rare than barb land units).

Thoth.

Irgy · April 24th, 2011, 22:01

Slow on updates as I'm on holidays with a bad internet connection. Just a quick note that I popped the barrow near Letum Frigus, and found...

The goblin fort is in fact too tough to take down, at least not without significant losses and risk of promoting the archers if I fail. So I'll leave it be for now. Some settlers are close to ready and I haven't prepared a road to their cities frown

Or even decided exactly where to settle. Was going to settle near the fort, but it's not such a good spot while the fort itself is still there. A bit disorganised really on the whole.

Irgy · April 26th, 2011, 22:04

I've done a bit of organising and turned post #2 of this thread into a reference post with my current plans in it. I'll try and keep it up to date from now on. This is as much to get my own mind in order as anything else.

Since I plan it to be changing, I'll post here the current contents. I won't always do this when I change it, but probably for the big changes. The diplo stuff is just minor edits to bring it up to date, the tech stuff is something I've discussed recently anyway, so the newest thing is really just the current building plans. These were just off the top of my head though anyway, so they're subject to change and errors at the moment.

I'll update the city plans with screenshots of each if I get a chance.

Quote:Diplomacy summary:

WarriorKnight as Einion Logos of the Elohim
My main neighbour, and my entire land border, with a capital basically directly northwest of mine. On friendly terms, with an NAP that's rolled on another 30 turns every time it's close to ending with little argument from either of us. We've agreed our settling border in almost complete detail. We've had a few gmail chats, and generally tend to keep each other informed of what's going on. He can be a little reluctant to volunteer information about his plans, although if I ever ask him things directly he'd probably answer.

Founded and running The Order.

Current deals:
[spoiler]
NAP until T140 (was T80, then T110).

Agreement to share the ice mana (what was I thinking... really... ?)

Agreement for him to loan me 1 mana of a type I may request - within reason, he needs the appropriate tech to improve a mana node, although I may dispell it for him. Currently borrowing his Palace water mana, although that will end soon. Have informed him I will borrow nature mana at some point, but otherwise stick to death mana.

Various settling agreements which constitute our border. I'll post an image of this later on. To sum up though, in the west he's claimed a cows-dyes site west of Tongurstad, then I've claimed the clams-dyes site to the south of it, and he has the corn-mana site to the west of it. That basically completes our western border. To the north, he will settle a mana-dragonbones site just north of Graelingvig. To the northeast, I've claimed the fish-rice-pig-wines site, and while it hasn't been confirmed yet, I'm probably unlikely to get anything north of there.

Open borders.

We have traded maps.

An ongoing gems for beer trade. This however will become redundant once I have completed my own brewery. I am going to suggest changing the ale to corn.

Communication History:

(TBD)

Nyktorion as Thessa of the Ljosalfar
Located far to the north. Quite friendly diplomatically so far. In the back of my mind I'd originally envisaged talking WarriorKnight into a joint attack on the elves. However their friendly nature, along with the fact that they're not as close as I imagined (in fact as far away as anyone else really), makes me more inclined to work alongside them.

Founded and running Fellowship of Leaves.

Current deals:

Currently trading gold for sheep, although this trade may be renegotiated in the future. He currently wishes to switch gold for gems, although I am going to propose gems for cotton.

We've negotiated general terms for how to go about mana trades.

We have intention to trade my fire mana for his death mana.

Communication History:

(TBD)

Mr Yellow as Sabathiel of the Bannor
Elminated by first the Malakim and then the dogpiling Ljosalfar.

No religion.

Deals made:

We had open borders

A map trade was made.

In exchange for the above, I promised to loan him copper. However, upon learning of the intentions of the elves to finish him off, he decided there was no point in going through with the trade.

Communication History:

(TBD)

Thoth as Varn Gosam of the Malakim
Despite the civ being temporarily taken over by Sciz while Thoth was having technical difficulties, he appears to be a bit of a runaway at the moment, with the top score and general demographics values.

Founded and running Runes of Kilmorph, although switched breifly to Octopus Overlords.

No deals made.

Communication History:

(TBD)

Mardoc as Hannah the Irin of the Lanun
No contact with this civ. The other southern civ, but located far to the west - we're effectively at the far opposite ends of the map as far as contact is concerned. I have an extremely unenviable position relative to him, being significantly closer by sea than by land. Made worse by the fact that this is not true of any other civ (except arguably WarriorKnight). The two of us are teamed up in FFHPBEM6, which means we'll likely have a bit of a rapore, but there's no reason why that has to extend to remaining at peace. He is apparently currently sending a workboat our way to make contact.

Founded and running Octopus Overlords.

No deals nor communication.[/SPOILER]

Tech plans:

Main path:
Finish Sanitation.

Writing -> Horseback Riding (consider Sailing) -> Trade -> Deception (if CoE still available).

Necromancy -> Alteration (could be bulbed, but I probably won't) -> Sorcery.

Corruption of Spirit.

Arcane Lore (bulbed, hopefuly 2xsages), while building the Infernal Grimoire

Strength of Will (from Griomoire)

Techs to consider throwing in, but timing uncertain (in no particular order):
Mathematics - for gambling houses.

Currency - for trade routes

Priesthood - for Ritualists.

Military Strategy -> Warfare - for the national and heroic epics.

Optics - purely to get to that land where I can see Yggdrasil, if the elves haven't settled it already by then.

Techs to look at afterwards (in no particular order):
Any of the previous list not yet completed.

Divination - for the tower, to slingshot one of the other more expensive techs on this list.

Elementalism for the tower, mainly just as a prerequisite to the Tower of Mastery.

Fanaticism -> Malevolent Designs - for top tier evil/AV units. This is a possibility for the Divination tower.

Pass Through the Ether - for Obsidian Gates, hopefully via The Nexus. These are good for their own sake and for Minotaurs. Note that this is a top candidate for sage-bulbing once I have Arcane Lore, in addition to being the most expensive option for the Divination tower.

Engineering - for road movement, and for Guild of Hammers (especially if I never get around to getting Smelting).

Production plans:

Galveholm:
Build a brewery, potentially throwing in a whipped Granary and Smokehouse along the way. Also wants a library and a temple of the veil as soon as possible. Once the population gets high enough I'll work three scientists here as well.

Grottiburg:
Finish the current settler. Build Rosier. Go back to pumping out adepts. Will make a detour for a library and a temple of the veil, as this is another city I hope to run a large number of scientists in once the farms can support it.

Tongurstad:
Whip the current settler as soon as it's possible to do so. Build granary and smokehouse to create an excellent whip city.

Graelingvig:
Building mage guild then adepts for want of anything better to do. Once Sanitation is in, concentrate on growing to 5 population so that it can work two 3-food farms, both gold, and the silk. This will involve working at least 3 farms along the way, so another needs to be improved. May be worth putting a library here too for the research bonus on the commerce tiles worked.

Steinvik:
Currently has granary and smokehouse queued for efficient whipping. However, this may be a good spot to knock out an extra worker or two.

Culdevic:
Monument, then market and elder council, working gems and dyes then what farms or seafood are available.

New settlements:
The pig-fish-rice-wine site in the northeast will probably be next, as long as I can get the workers and military escort prepared in time. The far eastern (reagents) and far western (clams, dyes) cities are then the two next best candidates. I will build the city near the goblin fort once Rosier is strong enough to safely clear the goblin archers off it. I think I'll need a few new workers soon ot support all this.

Irgy · April 27th, 2011, 01:36

Caught up on some diplo.

To WarriorKnight:

To Nyktorion:

To Thoth:

Irgy · April 29th, 2011, 16:07

Their replies, with any comments back from me again inline:

WarriorKnight:

Nyktorion:

Thoth:

Irgy · April 29th, 2011, 18:28

So Sanitation is in.
[Image: civ4screenshot0505.jpg]

This should fix the demographics, right? Well, not when you're whipping like a madman.
[Image: civ4screenshot0512.jpg]

In fact they've hit what I can only hope to be an all-time slump. The only thing that's not as bad as it could possibly be in the rankings is land area, and that's partly because I'm mostly inland so far (though I'll have a lot of coastal cities when they're all settled).

The good thing though is I've got two settlers built, and all my cities are actively growing at an increasingly rapid rate. The lead in happiness and health demographics is normally a bad sign, but it does at least mean I have more room to grow (and thereby catch up) than the others.

Here's a city by city overview of what's happening.

Galveholm:

Yes, I really did just whip a granary for 4 pop. Providing 1/5 of a bar of food, it will basically pay for itself after 20 population increases. This will, I hope, take only a little over 20 turns to happen. I'll likely whip a smokehouse once it's about to grow into unhealth or unhappiness again.

Otherwise, it's building the brewery. I'll start on a library as soon as the brewery is finished. Other than whipping smokehouse and maybe the library, I'd like to then grow to work all the farms, all the mines, and 3 scientists (another from a temple of the veil).

Grottiburg:

Just finished a settler, will build Rosier, a library and a temple of the veil. I'll also work 3 scientists here, maybe more once the shrine is in. Otherwise I'll go back to pumping out adepts.

Tongurstad:

Just whipped a settler. Will build a granary and smokehouse next to turn it into an efficient whip city. Not sure what I'll build in there after that, maybe more settlers.

Graelingvig:

In hindsight, my rush to get copper by building here has left me with an extremely unproductive fourth city, one of the reasons I'm slipping a little behind I think overall. Now that sanitation is in, it's growing to population 5. I won't bother with a granary+smokehouse here, they won't pay for themselves. I will get a library though. Otherwise it will just slowly build adepts.

Steinvik:

Building a workboat for Kuldevind. It has a granary already and a smokehouse in the queue, but it may build a worker in between. I also need to build two workboats for the reagents city somewhere, and this is probably a good choice.

Kuldevind:

What a disaster - I've put 13 hammers into a monument and the borders have popped already. It should have stopped with the monument 6 turns ago. frown

In my partial defence, I was away on the turn it should have switched, but it's no excuse. I shouldn't have been building one in the first place because of the likelihood of religion spread, and I didn't notice to change it myself even on the turn the borders popped (should have been a clue really!).

It's probably going to switch away from the commerce buildings onto granary and smokehouse.

Irgy · April 30th, 2011, 06:53

So, the Malakim have Trade.
[Image: civ4screenshot0516modif.jpg]

Over us, they have:
Way of the Earthmother, Message from the Deep, Archery, Priesthood, Warfare, Military Strategy, Horseback Riding, Sailing, Writing and Trade.

Over them, we have:
Construction, Sanitation, Way of the Wicked, Corruption of Spirit.

Definately behind, but could be worse. What's more worrying is how much further behind we might potentially fall with the current GNP lag, and the high likelihood of some marble wonders going to the Malakim soon.

There's a conversation between the three eastern civs going on about the subject now, which I initiated:

Quote:Just letting you both know, in case you haven't been watching the tech trading screen: The Malakim have researched trade in the last couple of turns, so we can all see their technology situation. I have attached their list of "can be researched" technologies for your convenience. Not actully as bad as I might have thought, but still concerning.

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]That's interesting, now at least we can see where he's at tech wise.

While his tech list isn't as bad as it could be, we're talking about the guy with 10 cities and a huge army. Given that he's also Financial, I think it will only keep getting worse.

What do you guys think?[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]The thing that concerns me most is his good position in combination with the boost he's likely to get from the Bone Palace and Great Library, neither of which he can be far from building by now. Unless one of you two is nearly finished them, but I know I'm not. None of us have seen any marble from what I can tell, but he appears to have a source (I can see one in his area, and he's not likely to have built the Heron Throne without it).

Of course, what exactly I plan to do about it is beyond me. I don't yet have a significant military force. At least the Elohim lands are an impenetrable buffer between myself and the Malakim, otherwise I'd be quite concerned about being the next target.

I'm interested to know where Mardoc stands on all this. Have either of you made contact yet? He was apparently sending a workboat my way, but I should have seen it by now. Mardoc having only one contact means the two of them are likely to be getting along quite well by now...[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Yeah, that's a problem. I'm not building either of them, and I wouldn't be surprised if he one or both in a few turns or so. Are you building either of them nyktorion?

I have contact with him. He isn't getting along that well with the Malakim as he's paranoid that he'll be their next target. Since both nyktorion and I can use our worldspells for defence and you don't border him Irgy, it seems logical that Mardoc would be the Malakim's next target and after using Religious Ferver to receive 10 cultists, I don't see how Mardoc can easily fend the Malakim off.

BTW Irgy, the workboat Mardoc was sending to contact you got eaten by a griffon, so unless you send something in Mardoc's direction you won't be making contact with him anytime soon unfortunately.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Lime"]Hi there,

sorry for not responding earlier; T116 was another turn I played rather late at night (though not at 4am, like T112 ), so didn't deal with diplomacy at that time anymore.

Yes, Thoth is quite strong right now. I think he's not at the point of being a runaway yet, but he'll be in the long-term if we don't do anything about. So even though I was on Thoth's side in the Bannor war, I definitely want to do something against Thoth running away now. Due to WarriorKnight sanctuary and Irgy's distance to myself, it should also be clear that I have no motivation to just try absorbing you (like Mr. Yellow) in order to get better chances relative to Thoth

For your convenience, here is some concrete information I have about Thoth:

- according to what I see in the tech trading screen, he currently has a total of 12 ancient era techs, and he got his 15th classical era tech this turn: Construction
- sorry, I am currently not building any wonder, so I won't have any realistic chance at contesting his Great Library and Bone Palace
- Thoth has a city right on top of his marble source; it's Golden Yurt (formerly: Tentatio-onis, Mr. Yellow's border city to Thoth, and the first city to fall in the war)
- from city-zooming, I can see Thoth already has the heroic epic, and a command post (certainly from the Military Strategy great commander) in the same city; that city is Golden Shack, his border city to Mr. Yellow before the war
- besides the cultists, there are two Malakim my hawks have spotted that we should be particularly aware of: first, there's General Martok, the slayer of Orthus, currently a swordsman with Combat V, Drill I, Mobility I, Bronze Weapons, Orthus' Axe, and Shield of Faith; second, there's an adventurer, currently a warrior with Bronze Weapons, Mobility I, and Combat II
- my hawks have spotted both of these hero-like units in the area around the Remnants of Patria; I can also see 5 cultists exploring in various directions; based on that, I believe that an attack on Mardoc is not imminent yet

In order to stop Thoth's rise, I think that we have to do a military strike against him at some point. However, I don't believe that this point is right now; while my hero, archeres and tiger priests sufficed to take Pink Dot and F.Destination, I doubt they could do serious damage to Thoth at this point. In my opinion, a better time would be when Irgy and I get mages for specters and fireball/maelstrom, respectively, and WarriorKnight's hero has collected some levels. Another good opportunity would be the time when Thoth decides to hit Mardoc. The perfect scenario would be if those two times coincide

Another point I'd like to raise here are our trading relations. I have had negotiations about mana trades with both WarriorKnight and Irgy now; it seems that all three of us would like to use magic in the near future (WarriorKnight on the adept level, and Irgy and myself at the mage level). What do you think of sharing these negotiations in our circle of three instead of doing them bilaterally? I think this would ease our cooperation here.

Last, I'd like to ask Irgy: what are your plans concerning Ashen Veil? First, are you planning to get the Stigmata of the Unborn in the near future? The availability of the entropy mana from this shrine might affect the above mentioned mana trades. Similarly, I would be interested in whether you plan to switch to Hyborem once you summon him; in that case, we should remember to keep mana deals involving you to be rather short-term (and maybe already start considering future deals with Hyborem, instead?), as I'm unsure how much your successor would feel bound by such deals.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Thanks for that info Nyktorion.

I certainly agree that mages are a better time to go after the Malakim, but I have my doubts that we'd be ready before he goes after Mardoc. We'll see I guess. Either way the best thing for me to be doing now is to continue expanding and trying to catch up in population to everyone else. So that when something start's to happen I can actually contribute significantly. I'll at least have Rosier soon though.

As for three way mana trading, I'm happy to do it that way, but I'm not convinced it will be any less complicated.

I will indeed build the AV shrine, I want entropy mana as much as anyone else. The required great sage will take a while though yet, unfortunately. I won't research Infernal Pact for a good while, and there's no way I'm switching to Hyborem when I do in any case.[/COLOR]

Irgy · May 1st, 2011, 19:42

The conversation is ongoing, with some more emails and a chat with WarriorKnight. I'll just give a summary:

Everyone has met everyone, except for myself and Mardoc.
The three eastern civs, Sheaim, Elohim and Ljosalfar, are really starting to plan to work together against the common Malakim threat. WarriorKnight sits in the middle of us and, with the help of the threat of his worldspell, has done a good job of bringing us together really.
I'm concerned about the prospect of the Lanun and Malakim signing a long term NAP. This would leave the Malakim at high likelihood of getting out of control. It would also leave me particularly exposed to a Lanun sea raid, something I haven't mentioned to the others but that I'm very concerned about.
However, apparently the Malakim and Lanun aren't getting along so well just yet. Mardoc is apparently afraid of being Thoth's next target. They have an NAP until T140, and many think this is when an attack is likely to occur.
That gives us a T140 target date to focus on being prepared for. Basically, we hope to be able to launch a counter attack to open another front or two for the Malakim as soon as they attack the Lanun.
WarriorKnight is quite concerned about sand tigers. I've basically told him he might need to avoid them by way of simply staying away from the desert. If the Malakim can be confined to desert then they're at least under control, even if we can't safely venture into it.

So, shortly after I write them, all my plans are being thrown in the air again. Not a bad thing though really.

I'm now turning Grottiburg into a GPP pump for the AV shrine, as the others have a desire for entropy mana by close to the T140 target date. As it stands, I can just barely get there in time. The plan for this is:
* Whipped Rosier the Fallen (4 pop, a lot of overflow), and working farms and a scientist.
* Will build a Temple of the Veil next, whipping it once the timing is right - basically once doing so will increase rather than decrease the number of specialists I can afford to run. This will allow me to work two scientists and a priest.
* I'll next build a library, in order to run a third scientist (and also to make use of all this research that will be being generated there).

On the whole, I should therefore be running 1 specialist for 3 or 4 turns, 3 specialists for another 6 or so turns, and 4 specialists after that. This will get me my great person, either sage or priest, just about right on T140.

In order to prevent popping a scientist/merchant first in Tongurstad, as well as to make up some of the production shortfall from focusing so heavily on specialists in Grottiburg, Tongurstaad will no longer focus as heavily on specialists itself. If I do it right, it will be just a handful of GPP short of a great person when one pops in Grottiburg, and can then get back to focusing on one. By then it should hopefully have a second prophet it can run as well from an AV temple.

With adepts likely fairly slow to come out of Grottiburg, and the capital likely eternally busy on commerce buildings and big towers, the newer cities of Kuldevind and Stienvik will need to pick up some of the slack in Adept production. As they will still take a few turns yet to get moving I don't expect to be seriously pumping out adepts until T130, making T160-170 the target for a significant number of mages to be available. A lot later than I'd like really, but that's just the way it is.

I also want to build at least three settlers in the relatively near future, for my west-most city and the two cities next to mana nodes. So production is looking pretty tight at the moment. Still, with a Sanitation-fuelled whip things ought to be getting moving a lot faster than they had been.

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