[SPOILERS] Cheater Hater hates bad advice. BGN gives only bad advice.

[Cheater Hater]

Thanks again for all the input, along with posts that make sure my walls of text aren't alone

I never said having to spend some hammers on military is a bad thing--having to defend cities from barbs is fine (at least land barbs--naval barbs is another issue all together, but that's another can of worms, and not particularly relevant ), mainly because that's not a big deal--an axe and/or spear in each city generally will solve that problem. The problem comes from the larger picture I've already complained about way too much

I'll be honest--I care too much about the games I play. I can go into a rage based on just going into what appears to be a losing position in an unranked Hearthstone match (that happens because of luck/differences in card quality from availability) even if I still have a good chance of winning, just because there's no one in front of me to take the heat. Still, the reason I still play things like Hearthstone even with those issues (besides the fact that Magic Online is a piece of garbage ) is that there are moments that I really like--that applies to most of the games I play in fact.

The problem with the "just have fun" distinction in this case is that it conflicts with the PYFT restriction--if I get stuck in a losing position, I can't quit, and I don't want to kingmake (rolling over to someone, starting a war I can't win just to screw someone over), so I'm just stuck in my position, trying not to lose instead of trying to win. Maybe my stance is based too much on preserving fun for everyone else, even at the expense of mine--heck, my PB18 participation was based almost entirely on that.

Getting back to the actual game, I played a turn this morning, the pictures are here--I'm going to play the new turn after I finish this post, but I might not get something written until morning--until then, here are some questions I don't think have been answered yet:

• Can johns see inside Vienna from his culture? I don't think so, but I want to be sure
  
• How much gold would I get from a captured enemy city? What determines that?
  
• When/where should I be building Libraries and Temples? There's some obvious places (Rillanon started a Library last turn for instance), but I don't know where the margins lie.
  
• When should I actually convert to Hinduism? Is it worth it to switch (and eat the anarchy turn) as soon as one of my Hindu cities would become unhappy, or should I wait, maybe even until a Golden Age?
  

Edit: T80 is here, I'll probably write something up about it tomorrow.

[Cheater Hater]

T81 Report:




Well, next turn is the fateful turn--if I choose, I can put 4 units right next to Sabata (3 Axes and a Spear), and assuming johns doesn't put more than one more unit in the city, I should take it on T83 (barring horrible luck). If I choose, I can wait two turns to let the Bas-Tyra Axe join the stack and/or whip the axe in Vienna this upcoming turn to hedge my bets--a lot of that will depend on what units I see in the city next turn. I also have to take into account everything else johns is doing--there's an Impi wandering around Carib, he presumably founded a city this turn to my SE (by the windmill) with an Axe and Impi guarding it, and there's always the stuff to my north by Aachen to worry about. Obviously I have more power than johns, but I also have three fronts to guard, while he only has one active one (though he doesn't know that, which could be to my advantage). I still wish I knew how much gold I was going to get for capturing (and presumably razing) the city--I also want to know if there's any chance of keeping it, since it is size 2--the only time I would even consider it is if johns doesn't add any units and I win both battles (so I could guard it with 3 units), and I don't even think that's a good decision--it's another risk versus reward game



I'm assuming johns is the rival best power (he certainly is of the opponents I have graphs for, and this is a worst-case scenario), and we can see 3 Impis and 2 Axes for 24k power. I think johns has at least 20 pop (Capital has 6, Ugly has 6, Sabata has 2, five other cities at the minimum for 5, I have visibility on a couple northern cities as well--I can get a more accurate count when I log in, but I'm currently locked out to avoid the double-move (or double-move appearances)) for 10k. For techs, assuming johns has Sailing (which he needs to be able to trade resources with me right?), he has 20k worth of power there. That's a minimum of 54k power accounted for--that leaves 53k left between extra population, other techs I missed (though I don't think any others are reasonable, unless he already has Math/Alphabet, which I doubt), buildings (I don't know how many Ikhandas johns has built yet), and units. Obviously some of those units should be guarding other cities, but it's still a lot of power.

[Cheater Hater]

Well, I played T82, and I didn't end up declaring war on johns--but only because I didn't need to!

Yeah, johns declared war on me last turn! One thing I hadn't been mentioning is that 1S of the windmill was a hamlet, and I had been pillaging it over the last couple turns, just managing to pillage it completely before johns settled his city. Apparently johns took this as an aggressive move, and declared on me to kill the warrior. I believe we call this in the business "you have chosen unwisely..."

What follows is interesting. I moved down the expected four units (3 axes+spear), and upon seeing multiple workers down there and no military units, I moved the Warrior down too just in case. I also whipped the Axe in Vienna to provide defense, along with the one moving down from Bas-Tyra. However, seeing the multiple unhappy faces in Vienna, along with the expectation I'll have fewer units by the end of next turn, I decided to convert to Hinduism as well, forgetting this means my whip won't come out this turn

Still, I don't think it'll matter that much--johns shouldn't be able to get through my stack on the chokepoint this turn (and if he does, I have bigger problems), and the Bas-Tyra Axe is still able to cover it next turn. However, johns's power appears to have skyrocketed, almost matching mine. Ideally I can just burn Sabata and make peace, but I'm worried johns won't just let me do that.

Pictures are right here--any questions, just ask

[GermanJoey]

Two questions: why did you feel like razing those improvements wasn't an aggressive move, and hmmm, how to ask this second one... if you're able to burn Sabata, what do you think the likelihood is that johns will just take peace?

[Cheater Hater]

Two questions: why did you feel like razing those improvements wasn't an aggressive move, and hmmm, how to ask this second one... if you're able to burn Sabata, what do you think the likelihood is that johns will just take peace?

It's not really that I didn't think it was aggressive, it's that I didn't care--I didn't even see johns's Settler until I was on the hamlet. That is a bit of an odd case, since there was a bit of a weird turn order deviation from me generally playing near the beginning of the turn and johns near the end. Technically he double-moved me by playing at the end and beginning of a turn, then I double-moved him to get back to the normal turn order. Obviously mine was more influential, but I had planned on pillaging the cottage even before seeing johns's settler.

I have no idea what johns is going to do--look at his sudden peace offer to me in the first war after his Impi died, where he didn't even wait for my Axe to get in Aachen first. If he doesn't go quietly, I should still be safe--each border city has at least one Axe, Aachen has an Axe and Spear with another Axe in production, the NE has 3 Axes and a Warrior to provide coverage, and Augsburg is on a hill. Obviously I hope I get peace so I don't have to worry about johns for a bit (and can focus on building Libraries and getting to Currency), but if I have to stay at war it shouldn't be so bad.

[Cheater Hater]

T83 Report:
Well, Civstats tells the story--I took Sabata and burned it as expected, losing the one Axe I expected. There actually was a slight complication, as johns was able to promote both units in the city to Shock (apparently I didn't notice the blue sparkles--though seriously, why is that information not available in the UI in any other way? Having the blue sparkles visible to the opponent shows it's not supposed to be private information, but since you can only see the top defender in each stack for each unit you could attack with (unless I'm missing something), it can be a nasty surprise. Just have "Promotable" in the stats, next to the promotions.). As such, I decided to give a little effort and sandbox it a bit--and when I still burned the city after losing my first axe without doing any damage, I decided to still go and burn the city

Anyway, let's see the carnage!


Lots of spread-out troops--I sacrificed the warrior to see what troops johns had in range, and it isn't that much, just another Impi and Axe (though both have/could have Shock). Still, I'm offering peace (just like he offered me at the beginning of the turn) and hoping he takes it. If he doesn't (and I assume he wouldn't), he can easily kill the warrior (worst case with the Impi), then he has a choice of either killing off my injured Axe or taking a slightly better than 50-50 shot at my fresh Axe. After that, I have two more Axes in Vienna, the Spear outside Vienna, and whichever Axe doesn't get killed by johns's Axe. After that, I can kill the Impi with the surviving Axe, and if he kills the injured Axe I can kill it with my multitude of units. The more interesting question is what I do if he kills my two units, then offers peace. If he kills the injured Axe I can kill 2 units back, leaving me still up on hammers (2 Impis+2 Axes vs 2 Warriors+2 or 3 Axes+Sabata). If he kills the fresh Axe I might retreat and take the fresh peace since I won't have the advantage anymore (though I'll be down 2 Warriors vs Sabata, his Axes will be far enough away he'll probably take the peace. If he loses his Axe attacking my fresh one, I obviously keep going and push forward. Is there anyway to tell what happened while the peace offer is still on the table?





More Axes are on the way, and I can even chop one out soon--I'd much rather have that chop go to a library in Bas-Tyra, but I don't want to risk having too little military if this war goes long (whether by choice or not).



Yes, johns's power has been getting dangerously close to mine--this is after I burned Sabata; before that, we were only 1k apart. At least my GNP is finally getting better (remember, this is without any arrow bonus, or my upcoming Libraries, and with my northern cities still under unhappiness).

[spacetyrantxenu]

If your screen resolution is high enough that the trade window doesn't block the whole screen (and from the size of your screen shots that appears to be the case) you should be able to click and drag around on the mini map to look around the game board without canceling the trade offer that is on top of the game board. You can also press F1 to look at your city list and click the icon for any of your cities to get a closer view of that area. As long as you don't press ESC you won't cancel the pending trade offer. You can look through your other Function key screens the same way (F5, F9, etc.) without canceling the pending offer. Just don't press ESC.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

F5 is the easiest way to have a look at the battlefield without canceling open diplo messages. On the F5 screen there is a large map. Use that to show your units, then click on the opposing leader's picture to see his units. Based on what you know of previous troop positions (in war you should always have a picture for reference so you can know these kinds of things) you should be able to determine if any units are missing, either yours or his. You can also track war weariness on F1 relations tab by hovering the mouse over your opponent's picture for his WW number, then to get your own WW number select his picture and hover the mouse over your own picture. Or something like this.

The easiest/surest way is to keep pictures of the battlefield troops' positions and look through the diplo interface using the mini-map as Xenu said or F5 (which lets you get to the precise location you want to see a little more easily because the map is bigger.

[Cheater Hater]

Well, I got peace with johns (without losing any units even), but Whosit has a Chariot that's way too close to my borders for comfort. Hopefully either he doesn't declare (or at least doesn't attack the city) or my Axe holds. Pics are here, I might do a full report later

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

I could not open the dropbox files but I will try again later on my computer. I meant to say from your last report that I see a lot of axes but I do not see any spears. Gotta have them, especially on the frontier where unwelcome guests are bound to show up from the fog.