ISDG 2012 flame war

[MJW (ya that one)]

Is there any interest left in talking about the game? Could CivFr have won if they had better diplo, or would that counter-balance to the CFC-Poly-CP alliance have just handed the game to RB? How did WPC miscalculate an attack against the Germans so badly? How about Spanish Apolyton against CFC? Did you guys ever seriously consider getting UCiv on your side? Let me know if anyone has questions about what was happening on team CFC. I stopped being active at the end, but I was very involved the entire time RB was alive.

1. I think CivFr got crippled by CFC after their first war. So they basically focused on screwing over CFC after they realized that. If they knew how bad their position really was they wouldn't have signed peace with CFC. I don't think RB played their best because they knew they would lose so there's a good chance they stop the CivPlayers+Apolyton attack and win with their large amount of cities and the nasty SoZ+Great Wall combo.

2. WPC didn't know how bad an early attack is in Civ4 on a map like this through inexperience, probably the same with Spanish attack against CFC but I don't have first-hand knowledge of that. Can you tell us more about that war against the Spainish?

3. RB got UCiv to gift them a large amount of gold and of course would be happy if they DoW one of the dogpilers. However, they had an uphill struggle because UCiv failed to get involved in the final war where they would have much more incentive etherway.

[Ellimist]

FWIW I think the biggest thing RB did wrong was also the thing that RB did the best. We had things planned out extremely far into the future in extreme detail. This meant that we were unable/unwilling to be flexible when we needed to be, and most suggestions from most of the team were answered with a demand to redesign a 20+ turn micro/macro plan.

This also helped to cause a failure to understand what other teams were likely to do and an attitude of "the diplo team will just have to deal with this."

[YossarianLives]

@mjw

1. We definitely didn't damage CivFr much, it was a stalemate the whole time. We didn't want war with them, but DOWed over diplomatic frustrations. It was probably a mistake, but fortunately we were able to secure peace right before the RB dogpile.

2. Magno of the Spanish team joined us after we eliminated them. He told us his team was concerned that they would struggle diplomatically and fall behind due to lack of English, so they devised a plan to attack the first team they met. They made up some story about not playing with NAPs in their community and we totally bought it. Their attack took us by complete surprise, but they were so far behind we were able to hold it off. By the time we attacked them later in the game, they were too small and behind to do anything about it.

3. Yeah, I forgot about those gold gifts. They were very annoying, but I guess it was too little, too late.

@Ellimist: I think there was a feeling on your team that if you made concessions to other teams, it was purposely playing worse. If you had settled slightly less aggressively towards your neighbors, or stopped taking German cities at WPC's proposed 50/50 split, that would have been the best strategy to prevent the dogpile. Scooter captured this sentiment, but missed the implication, after a chat with CP.

1) Though they won't mention it, I suspect they harbor some minor resentment for our aggressive settling towards them. We did this to basically everyone. Of course we made the right call in pushing our borders, but this is just the price you pay for being top dog.

[antisocialmunky]

I think I was one of the ones yelling and screaming for not min maxing so hard with the diplo but it got ignored. You've got to make concessions and compromise if you are going to do real diplomacy. I mean, we had no ally the whole game and we screwed over the only one that was marginally friendly towards us (well they were horribly incompetent in the WPC war) but it might have changed things or not, who knows?

I also think that in retrospect, the WPC war tricked us into thinking we were in a dominant position when it was WPC's intentional or unintentional poor warring with us that was the real cause of their collapse. I think Sullla a few times mentioned that we would be hosed if there was any longbow mass whip. That might have lead us to think we could handle a dog pile better than we could. We also tried to optimize the conquest too hard because we were on the conqueror's plateau. However, because we spent so much time to eat all of WPC, we were never able to actually stand up those cities we captured and recover our tech rate.

[MJW (ya that one)]

I know ASM means "the Germans" not WPC.

YL, 2metra told me that you crippled CivFr in the first war. I'll see who is right when the forum opens. If CivFr was crippled they basically didn't know what they were doing by signing peace with you. If not they probably lost their way from their second war with you and the length of the game. RB tried to do stuff with CivFr but didn't get replies like you did. It's possible that they could have made a letter that really pushed the buttons (by saying for example that they will have do DoW someone anyway because of the amount of land that other teams got from RB's,WPC's and the Germans death) and made CivFr not sign peace with you or even NAP-stab you but that would have been very hard if possible at all.

S-Apolyton's failed to even cripple someone unlike the germans so they knock them out of last place...

Edit: Fixed typo.

[Borsche]

Just want to remind everyone that sulla fucking owns https://soundcloud.com/user364531826/dip...lo/s-tWLbs

[Fintourist]

If I were to say "Old Harry's so bad at using Slavery, he wouldn't know when to whip his mom!", that's trash talk. If I were to say "wetbandit is a douche, and I hate his ugly face", that's just being rude.

But that's true!

*******

I can imagine 2metra being a nice guy IRL and having occasionally honestly good intentions and willingness to discuss different topics, but my simple advice is not to enter an argument with him (more or less for the same reasons that 7 does not appreciate Sommer-guys style of discussion). Probably 50 % my fault etc.

Caledorn, if you happen to read this, I'm really sorry for you about the stuff in "new pitboss" thread at CFC. When I noticed your argument there I resisted the urge to type, this time I've had 3 beers

[2metraninja]

Yeah, imagine their apostate deeds of talking non-shit about the tribe worst enemy and gods offender.

I think if it is right that Brian missed the playing for team RB in the ISDG because of me, I actually made you guys big favor to save you the awkwardness of having such a genius around.

lol, you totally edited out a direct personal attack. I can tell by the awkwardness; just delete the post next time, okay?

Everyone subscribed to this thread have a copy of my initial words, but I guess no one wants to prove you wrong by saying I was not the bad guy who is afraid of his evil deeds and edits his own messages. Actually what I edited was changing "such a players around" to "such a genius around" as it sounded dull when I saw it after submitting.

[2metraninja]

[quote='Grimace' pid='510003' dateline='1418185056']

Caledorn, if you happen to read this, I'm really sorry for you about the stuff in "new pitboss" thread at CFC. When I noticed your argument there I resisted the urge to type, this time I've had 3 beers

Right now Cal have bigger problems to worry for than beers.

[darrelljs]

Its a horrible disservice to 2metra to continually lump him in the same bucket as Sommer. Any objective third party looking at what we've typed about him vs. what he's typed about us would think we are elitist assholes, and he is, at worst, a troll who likes to bait elitist assholes into showing just how elite their assholery can get. Sommer on the other had would be placed in the same bucket as insurance company lawyers and puppy killers.

Darrell