If Cata doesn't double (which I'm really suprised by, I thought that came up) then I think we want to push out adepts over the Catacombs.
Then again, it does give +2 bpt...
Wow I had no idea, I thought it did something pathetic like +HN to units built - maybe that was another version?
Esus also allows a bunch of spells right?
Maybe we should research so we can ignore those fields?
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.
(June 12th, 2013, 02:43)Qgqqqqq Wrote: If Cata doesn't double (which I'm really suprised by, I thought that came up) then I think we want to push out adepts over the Catacombs.
Then again, it does give +2 bpt...
After rereading the manual and changelog - it's actually 4 bpt . And also 400 Quick hammers, rather than the 334 I thought - so it only breaks even after the fifth non-Arcane or tenth Arcane Mage Guild. And of course requires a Mage Guild built in the city that's constructing it. Are we even sure we'll have more than six cities on heavy duty adept production? I mean, adepts as our army's core, yes, but we will need other things built from time to time. .
Yeah, this is one case where analysis definitely leads to a conclusion: skip it!
Quote:Wow I had no idea, I thought it did something pathetic like +HN to units built - maybe that was another version?
Esus also allows a bunch of spells right?
Maybe we should research so we can ignore those fields?
Sareln's been changing Esus a lot in each version. He's been looking for balance, and also wasn't sure how to code Nox so that it works the way he intended (though I think in v9 he got it). what you're describing definitely sounds familiar, although I don't remember which version that was.
For reference, here's the part of the changelog on Esus.
v9 changelog Wrote:
When CoE is state religion, can hire Nightwatch like mercenaries with Recon Units after Deception and Bowyers
Units with the Esus Steward Promotion (Shadowrider, Nightwatch, Shadow) can cast some spells for money if CoE is state religion.
Extort (All)
Blur – 12 GP (All)
Shadow Walk – 60 GP (Shadow Rider)
Haste – 60 GP (Shadow)
Poisoned Blades – 90 GP (With Poisons, Nightwatch)
Regeneration – 120 GP (Shadow Rider)
Hire the Nightwatch - castable by recon units under CoE with Bowyers, costs 200 GP
CoE Holy city gives +3 GPT, Esus cities give +1 GPT
CoE as state religion treats other religions as no-state religion (eg. RoK will produce +2 GPT in CoE cities)
I think this means, all in all, that we mostly won't use the spells. The only easy ones to get to are the ones that only require Nightwatch, but Poisoned Blades and Blur aren't terribly hard to get with a mage heavy army. Or terribly useful.
Except, maybe, Extort and Hire Nightwatch. Those could combine to be a really sharp power boost at a good time.
There might be exceptions, of course. And it's always good to have options. But I think we'll want to research all the mana techs anyway.
This morning's turn was slightly more interesting than the last, but still nothing special. On our borders, there arrived three goblins and a warrior. Required a bit of thought, because they mostly showed up at Lion Tamer where I only have two warriors, one of whom is the Light/well promoted one. We ought to be able to turn them all into XP, but not instantly.
In foreign news, HK's worldspell ended, but he built a fifth city, so he probably killed the Mistforms. I should remember to ask one of these days for confirmation.
We had another Weak Freak built, so our Mobility one has a buffer. And our first cottage upgraded to a Hamlet . Ringmaster now has 2 GPP/turn, and a 2% chance of Bard . Trapeze should finish its Great Bard a few turns before Ringmaster is due, which'll set the bar higher. It's a reminder, though, of how nice the free GPP will be.
Demos are still pretty sad. We're clearly third in GNP despite our high culture output, and our hammers shortfall is possibly the reason we're only barely anymore first in Food. Maybe I should have gone for Aristocracy after all. I think I'm committed to the current path, though. And if there's any civ who can win from behind, as long as they're close(ish), it's the Balseraphs.
Besides, how much does it matter that I'm behind 20-30 bpt when I'm five turns away from grabbing 1500 beakers in a single turn?
Well, ok, it does bother me, but I still think the long economic game is cottages. The main reason our GNP looks so bad is that we don't have enough cottages and the ones we have haven't upgraded yet. With both problems being worked on, things should improve rapidly...I hope.
Next turn ought to be very good. We'll finish another Freak, a settler, and ought to be able to turn tech back on. Knowledge of the Ether, here we come! Should get a peek into the barb city, too, so I know when to stop building army .
Q Wrote:How long do cottages take to break even in EitB?
Depends on how you measure, and a lot of other factors. If every tile is a grass river, cottages never catch up, not until you've had Taxation for fifty turns. But aristofarms only really work well on grass rivers (well, or floodplains).
Aristofarms are typically 3/0/3 tiles, 4/0/3 after Sanitation. Riverside cottages start at 2/0/2, become 2/0/3 after 6 turns, up to 2/0/5 after ~40 turns. Non-riverside of either is obviously 1 worse (also, non-riverside is impossible for aristofarms until Construction). Foreign Trade cuts improvement times in half.
So, looking just at commerce, 6 turns for a cottage to catch up, 3 after in FT. But it's not exactly apples to apples, because you've got to get food too, so it's more like 2 aristofarms vs 1 nonaristofarm and 1 cottage - early game that's two 3/0/3 vs a 4/0/1 and 2/0/X, X goes from 2 to 5. Looking at commerce + food, therefore, in the early game, you'd say only Towns compete, and even there it just breaks even. Work two tiles, get 6/0/6. And it takes 40 turns to make a Town, 20 in FT.
So why do I think cottages will still work? Well, for starters, you can use Foreign Trade instead of Agrarianism, and City States instead of Aristocracy. That helps the economy a lot per city, between extra trade and lower costs. Once we get Republic, it's even better.
Second, and more important - Merovech didn't give us a lot of grassland riverside tiles and nothing else. And he did give other food sources, food that can be half of a food + cottage but not an aristofarm. When river is limited, 2 grass farms and 2 cottages outdoes 2 aristofarms. When food in general is limited, and you want to work, say, desert gold and desert incense - it's easier to get there with no aristocracy.
So, I would say that cottages catch up to aristofarms about 10 turns after you don't have enough riverside grass for all your population to work, as long as you have enough cottages. And as long as you do have access to both Foreign Trade and City States. Given our circumstances - as long as the snowball doesn't kill us, I think we'll catch up a little bit after we switch civics. Because we've got the happiness and the terrain to work a lot more tiles, period, than if we went aristocracy, as soon as we finish growing and improving our cities.
This is the sad part at the moment - our core cities are working a bunch of farms and junk tiles - unimproved forests, mostly. Aristofarms and smaller cities, would be better - but better still will be farms and cottages. There's a reason I have four workers building core cottages at the moment.
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(June 12th, 2013, 16:18)Merovech Wrote: Do you like that map choice?
Yes, very much! It makes aristofarms vs cottages a choice, where the right answer depends on happy caps and whether you prefer early commerce or late, and so on. Not a choice where the right answer is always and everywhere aristofarms.
(June 12th, 2013, 16:18)Merovech Wrote: Do you like that map choice?
Yes, very much! It makes aristofarms vs cottages a choice, where the right answer depends on happy caps and whether you prefer early commerce or late, and so on. Not a choice where the right answer is always and everywhere aristofarms.
Good, I'm glad. That was one of my main goals with this map.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
Q, you might have to thank HidingKneel for this...
I have a save, but this time in the evening. And the pitbosses are down, so I can't waste time watching them. Guess you get a report with pictures!
Turn starts off promising:
In other news: ooh, an archer on flatland? Gotta take the shot, this is the best odds I'm likely to have
Won, got 4 XP.
So, how's the barb city look?
Hmm...1 archer, 2 CI warriors, 1 warrior, onna hill. Gotta assume complete fortification. That's four defenders, who'll defend at 8 + FS, 5.85, 5.85, 5.25. My star, mutated Swords, can attack at 6.6 (strong, no bonus), 7 (Heavy), 5.5 (plus one promo just earned and not yet spent) (Light) - plus I have a warrior with CIII/Shock/Light who really ought to be upgraded after he finishes butchering barbs near Lion Tamer, when he'll be attacking at 8, 10 vs warrior.
Line them up right, and that'll be pretty good odds for all of them, if I have sufficient warriorpults. I think 2 warriorpults is really enough, but since it would really suck to give XP to an archer, let's go for four. 4 Mutated Swords and four warriorpult/cleanup duty, and we'll be able to add this city to our empire.
I've - well, it'll take a few turns to move the pieces around, but we've got that amount of force just lying around! Just need a little time to assemble the force, but I'm going to start right now! Maybe we'll be lucky, and the barbs will finish a warrior in the interim, and then send them out as a kill squad to be butchered in the field.
Cities:
Ringmaster is finally working only improved tiles. Now we just need to wait a long time, for the cottages to grow up...
Trapeze is close, but still a couple turns from all improved tiles.
A bit of worker mismanagement: High Wire actually has an excess of improved tiles - it's coming up on a food limit, too. Should improve with Sanitation. And with water mana adepts.
I'm torn, whether we should continue working the Incense for gold now, or swap to cottages for food now and gold later. For the moment I'm sticking with Incense.
But Lion Tamer is looking beautiful - one extra improved tile, about to grow onto it. Just need to slap down a bunch of cottages in those woods, and it'll be a star:
Why the emphasis on cottages at the moment? Well...the demos are looking pretty sad.
I'm not the only one to notice:
HidingKneel Wrote:Barnum of the Circus,
The elven court offers its apologies for the brevity of our most recent communique. However, we have happy news: the trees we called upon were finally able to destroy one of the unseen abominations that were menacing our people. We suspect that there is at least one more out there, but that it may have wandered off in search of other victims. But for the time being, the Ljosalfar are celebrating our (minor) victory.
We are writing once again to communicate our alarm over the growing might of the Calabim. Several turns ago, we intercepted a communication from them which was meant for the Sidar. It seems that they are on good terms, perhaps even cooperating. I think it is imperative that one of us make contact with them, and convince them of the danger that the Calabim pose.
HK, Advisor of Archmistress Thessa of the Ljosalfar
Mardoc Wrote:Advisor HK,
Congratulations! But...'finally'? It wasn't an automatic victory? Those trees are tough!
For security's sake, I should point out that some of our Sages believe certain species of Hawk to have very keen eyesight, good enough to spot disturbances caused by the invisible; if they could somehow be trained, this would allow certainty on your safety.
The Calabim are indeed a grave threat, one that has demonstrated disregard for peace so long as they have sufficient strength. It seems that they are a long term threat, however; the Clownish military considers itself second to none. In a few turns, we expect to free a number of units from their anti-barbarian duties, and perhaps also to free Loki from his Inspiration duties. At that point, we will certainly push for contact with the Sidar. Ideally proceed afterward to learn of any weaknesses possessed by the vampiric foes.
Upon contact, we would be happy to pass on any messages the Court would like to entrust us with.
The Circus has refrained from any promises to the Calabim, short of a very temporary peace treaty. Dare I hope that the Court has acted likewise?
- Barnum
So...things are not the best, but they could be worse! The Mistform(s) could have come my way, after all. And we have a number of projects about to complete - plus a lot of cottages now getting better every turn.
The next few turns ought to be sweet. Settler done, next settler starting immediately, barb city capture force en route, KotE nearly in, and the Crown Jewel, Barding Drama/Sanitation very shortly!
Ok, this hurts, but Mardoc, it's not the end of the world.
Happy thoughts, happy thoughts.
Just got KotE, and we're still Arcane, somehow. Those will go well together.
We settle city 5 next turn, city 6 in ~4 turns, and capture city 7 in ~5 turns. Cities 5 and 6 already have improved tiles to work and workers in the area.
Our core workers have finally gotten enough cottages built for everyone. I need to still build a few excess for growth, but we've now got solid income and it'll get better on its own.
Tech plans: Animal Husbandry -> Fishing -> Sailing -> Hunting -> Writing -> Trade -> Cartography -> Philosophy -> Deception. Planning to run that as binary science, so first we'll pause to rebuild the treasury.
What to do with a bard:
Settle him for +12 culture/+3 gold?
Grab Drama without Sanitation...um...only if I want to go for a cultural victory, which I really don't. I guess it might allow a much later bulb to work, but what are the odds of another bard before I find enough regular beakers to reach Sanitation, and also before Golden Age makes sense?
Save him for a later tactical border pop. Problem is, it's a huge map, and my most likely foe is Ellimist, who's raiders
Golden Age! Definitely leaning this way, although I'm not sure if I want to do that right away or hold onto him for a bit.
Pros of GA now:
Boost us to the real cottage civics
It'd be a large fraction of our current GNP - lots of 1-commerce tiles being worked, GA doesn't boost costs
Extra hammers for, say, Arcane Mage Guilds and a few Potent adepts
Cons of GA now:
Not a lot of GPP production to be doubled
Not really all that much population in the empire, either - we're growing fast, but we're not there yet
No revolts we want in the next 9 turns, even with extra GNP
I think that adds up to Golden Age but not quite yet. Wait at least until we have the current wave of new cities, and ideally give them some time to grow, too. And I should go ahead and turn more of my non-combat Freaks into Shows, to start stacking up the GPP.
Of course, we still have the WS in reserve. But what I really want is to time our golden ages so that we can chain them back-to-back, also produce a number of new GP, and include revolts to Slavery, City States, Undercouncil, and Foreign Trade. And even with the additional GA commerce, even with the possibility of adding the WS for 27 total turns of GA, I'm not convinced that we can get to all of those by the end if we start now.
But we will be there soon. We've now got lots and lots of cottages starting to grow, cities still growing like weeds
. And also 400 Quick hammers, rather than the 334 I thought - so it only breaks even after the fifth non-Arcane or tenth Arcane Mage Guild. And of course requires a Mage Guild built in the city that's constructing it. Are we even sure we'll have more than six cities on heavy duty adept production? I mean, adepts as our army's core, yes, but we will need other things built from time to time. 
. Ringmaster now has 2 GPP/turn, and a 2% chance of Bard 
