American Politics Discussion Thread

[Jowy]

All I'm saying is that after researching the subject for years I can now understand their point of view better and why they are feeling threatened, encroached and betrayed (broken promises). How to resolve that I don't know, but clearly military action and annexing is not it.

You fail to understand that the greatest danger for Putin's reign is not military in nature. All this nonsense about NATO troops and feeling threatened is just a narrative to distract the population and deliver an excuse for western countries to keep doing business with Russia.

Who exactly would want to invade Russia? For what reason? And most important: How is anyone supposed to successfully attack Russia without risking nuclear retaliation? Putin is certainly not losing any sleep over this possibility. Sometimes the Putin apologists make it sound like the maximum range of a nuclear missile is 500 kilometers and NATO membership of the Ukraine would spell the end of Russian security.

The true danger for Putin is the emergence of successful democratic pro-western governments in the neighbouring states that subscribe to most of the values we associate with a democracy. The Russian people could become dissatisfied and start asking questions, for example where all the money from Russia's natural resources goes, why elections are rigged and if a Putin dictatorship is really the best form of government?  That's why Putin reacted immediately and sent troops to suppress anti-government protests in Kazakhstan a few weeks ago.

And all this BS about the imperialistic NATO: The only thing keeping the Baltic states safe is the US military involvement in NATO. Somehow people like you have seem to have a lot less compassion for countries that have been attacked by Russia before. I have no doubt the German government would throw the Baltic states under the bus in an instant if it weren't for NATO.

Speaking as citizen of a country that has been attacked by Russia: USA are not in NATO out of their good-will. Ukraine definitely would join NATO for a defensive purpose, but the same reason doesn't stand for USA. There's no military threat to USA anywhere on Earth. There's money and power to be gained. Now, that does not mean NATO is all bad either. If Ukraine does get invaded, they need help and NATO is there for that. It would be better if European countries could defend each other without help from USA, and that's something the leading countries are working towards, but right now it's not the case. I can also understand Germany being reluctant to send help because for Europe it's better for there to not be war and for Russian relations to be good. Countries that didn't support the Iraq War got a lot of shit, but in hindsight it's clear they were in the right. At the same time, we can't just let Russia invade Ukraine or other European countries. It would be a losing war to Russia in the long term, but that doesn't mean they won't do it. When you have a strongman leader like Putin, one man's ego alone can be reason enough.

[Bobchillingworth]

If Ukraine is invaded, NATO is very much not "there for that", because Ukraine is not a part of NATO. NATO will be there to defend other NATO members on the periphery, who at a minimum will likely be deluged with hundreds of thousands or millions of Ukrainian refugees. Other nations may see some benefit in arming Ukraine and/or Ukrainian partisans outside of the formal mechanisms of the alliance.

The U.S. is not at risk of being invaded primarily because it is powerful, and it is powerful in large part because NATO gives it numerous allies it can rely on for combat support, supply & logistics, basing rights, etc. There is money for defense contractors in NATO member states, but that's primarily because NATO assists all of its members even peacetime through equipment standardization (which helps prevent things like every nation using its own boutique ammunition calibers, preventing interoperability). Historically, most NATO countries have actually invested in European-origin equipment, like the G3, FAL, and HK 416 / 417 rifles, various French and German-built naval vessels, and the Eurofighter variants.

The invasion of Iraq was not a NATO operation. NATO as an entity had no role, outside of sponsoring some training missions there after the fact.

Russia has already invaded Ukraine, in 2014, and hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers are killed fighting Russian "separatists" in occupied areas of western Ukraine every year. Europe's impotent response has left Russia in a position to annex even more of the country. Perhaps your nation will be next; after all, Russia already occupies around 10% of what was once Finnish territory, forfeited following a campaign of blatant and unjustifiable Russian aggression in the Continuation War. I'm sure you're inundated with spurious anti-NATO propaganda, as Putin would prefer nothing more than Finland to remain isolated, underequipped, and unprepared for the sort of conflict privileged Europeans like to pretend is the province of underdeveloped nations.

[Jowy]

I'm not against joining NATO. When you've gotta defend your country from invaders you take what you can get. Last time we had to seek help from Nazi Germany. Russia in its current state can't be trusted to be peaceful.

[darrelljs]

https://twitter.com/billmaher/status/148...VIAVL1M4VQ

Darrell

[Jowy]

https://twitter.com/billmaher/status/148...VIAVL1M4VQ

Darrell

It should be illegal to post something that causes so much second-hand embarrassment

[Bobchillingworth]

Sure, conservatives want to end liberal democracy in America and install a corporatist theocracy run by a gibbering racist, but leftists emasculated a potato-themed children's toy; neither side is blameless!

[darrelljs]

The point of sharing was that it was funny, more than anything else. Although Bill Maher being a hero to the right and Liz Cheney being a hero to the left has top be somewhere near the top of the "Signs of the Apocalypse" list.

Darrell

[MJW (ya that one)]

MN-01 guy dies. Normally, in this situation, DEMs would have no chance for this seat. But there's a chance of a very weak candidate for the GOP. Likely R

[Pindrich]

LMAO! Do you guys really believe all this crap about Russia? You know the discussion went to the lowest of lows when people start factoring in Putin's ego. Of all things! Putin is an extremely intelligent and calculating person. Failing to realize this will get you nowhere. You wanna talk crap about Russia being a dictatorship and Putin having a gigantic ego? then look at the US first. America is currently a semi-police state headed by what is probably the biggest ego in the Western Hemisphere. Curious, no? and it's only getting worse. It's downhill from now on.

[AdrienIer]

Russian troll starts an account just to post about Russia in a discussion which hasn't mentioned Russia for almost a month ?
If the russian internet propaganda machine has arrived in this remote place of the internet it makes me worried things are actually going to become catastrophic in Ukraine...