You speak in whispers of the devils I have slain, Brian, Sareln & Ichabod of Elohim

[mackoti]

yes i did played with him in team(actualy just me played), and i went vacantions and when i return all my game plan was destoyed so I retreated because i realy wanted to let him play in a game(he started the pbem), second becasue a new pbme started where it was just me playing. and third i amnot a team playe i like to control everithing and evething to be done how i say...

[Brian Shanahan]

yes i did played with him in team(actualy just me played), and i went vacantions and when i return all my game plan was destoyed so I retreated because i realy wanted to let him play in a game(he started the pbem), second becasue a new pbme started where it was just me playing. and third i amnot a team playe i like to control everithing and evething to be done how i say...

So irreconcilable differences in play-style dropped you out of the team then.

I was a bit suprised that you and Acalostas teamed up, having seen you and Ioan sometimes diverge wildly in PB4, I did think you'd be better playing for yourself. You've a very unique style, which is hard to replicate.

[Brian Shanahan]

Site was down yesterday so report today.

I did some interesting reconnaisance and had an even more interesting chat with Kyan yesterday evening. Those of you who are lurking everything probably already have seen his side but I'll give my analysis.

As regards the turn not much really happened, a barb goblin showed up outside Nicker, Hospital completed it's horseman. To make sure I queued up another horseman in Nicker to be done well in time (2 turns for Heron, 2 for Horseman, goblin moves four turns waits one). 2 horsemen will be enough.

My settler finished in Muff and I moved him to city 5. Blue dot said 1E was better so I sent out a horseman as well, he'll scout next turn to see what the big deal is before the settler moves.

I also drew up a quick plan (as I envisage it now) of what I should be doing to Acalostas in 30 turns:

That should be self-explanatory. If not say it. The plan is to get the settler out from hospital and plop him down as marked.

And I had a look at a defensive situation for after the war:

And finally the demographics and power situation:

Showing clearly that the top three powers are Me, Acalostas and Kyan. Meaning the other three teams are either badly barbed or running a farmers like gambit.

The discussion with Kyan:

Now the last turn I showed how much land Acalostas had to move into to his south, which really got me nervous about the share of the spoils after the war.
So I first stitched together a map of our lands and looked at the spheres of influence:

It clearly shows I got gypped on decent land that is rightfully mine. Even acknowledging that a lot of the land inside Acalostas' brown oval is water he still has twice the land of me. He already owns a similar share to what I have, but while I've only marginal sites left really he's got a whole 7 (at least one site west of Placeholder) sites to fill out yet ranging from good to ridiculously strong. Also note that Placeholder (why there?) is Kilimorph holy city.

During my talk with Kyan I also drew up a quick paint map detailing our then current divisions negotiations with one extra city wanted by me:

The real map, as I actually under drew and my paint job is worse than reality:

I didn't consider it breaking the rules as a it is not remotely to scale, and b we both know the land anyways.

5:31 PM me: you got the proper save?
5:32 PM Kyan: yeah just playing now
5:33 PM me: I supposed you've had a good nose around the grigori the last few turns.
5:34 PM Kyan: yeh, just poking about
me: Looking at his development I think a 2v1 attack will be a foregone conclusion (with the right preparation naturally).
5:36 PM Kyan: grigori are doomed
5:37 PM me: I was most suprised with the situation in the south. He was saying that he was cramped by you and Archeron, but he has a big area which is naturally his, with Archeron on a seperate island, and 2 strong defensive sites to hold you. I'm kind of annoyed at the way he's ignoring this land and trying to cramp me out (by insisting on having what is a subpar site, despite 4 resources).
Kyan: he's out his depth mate
i dont expect miracles on the combat front either
5:38 PM one of his adventurers is a magic resist sentry axeman...
5:39 PM me: Oh, and you've trade routes with him, yes? 2 turns from now I'll be connected to him too, so we can trade through him. I should have happy to send to you for beer (CAMRA stuff only though). Magic resist sentry adventurer? No promotions at all would be far superior.
One advantage I did have though, was very low barb trouble
5:43 PM Kyan: hmm, what happy do you have to trade mate?
for micro purposes
i.e. to see if theres one we dont have
5:44 PM me: Give me a minute. I've mostly one of everything.
Kyan: alternatively
i'd swap it for a health
corn would be magnificient if possible
5:45 PM me: I'll see what I have. I might work corn (though feeding the runaway an extra 10% in a commerce city is not the best idea).
Kyan: haha
id prefer to be called an ally than a runaway
5:46 PM and health =/= happy generally, so the small boost in one city would be sweet
i meant 'does not equal' but it put a happy in
5:47 PM my forcesfor grigori war will be considerable by the way
very considerable
5:48 PM i would say i will likely be bringing enough to kill him solo
so, with your forces, we should demolish him
5:50 PM me: I'm doing about three things at the moment so give me time to gather my thoughts. I'll have minimum 20 horses, and probably Valin. The number of horses depends on how quickly I can get Order.
Oh yeah your new anthem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TLLcvWeiKw
Kyan: we should have multiple heroic strength swordsmen, mages, gibbon, gryphons and spiders
5:53 PM me: Nice army. As regards resources\.
5:54 PM I've multiple horses corn & sheep and one of gold ivory, silk, cotton (plains hill!) crab, fish marble. My plan is to have a two po
5:55 PM *two pronged attack from the north, west into Ravus Sol (a dummy attack) and east to his Capital (2 turns but the heavy units). It should be enough to pull him out of place to work for at least one of the cities and probably both.
5:56 PM Kyan: sounds good
5:57 PM for micro purposes, corn for ale is alright?
5:58 PM me: it does. The biggest plus would be Valin, but enough horses with withdraw will work. corn for ale is good, how much will the 10% give you though?
Kyan: ill log in again and check
me: ball park figure is ok.
5:59 PM Kyan: ill check as im not sure. capital is not a commerce site
about 4g
6:00 PM me: fair swap then if that's the gold. Happy is more important than health. How about the land divisions after the war?
6:03 PM Kyan: well, i spoke to krill about this yesterday
what do you think is fair
he wants to be more of a dick than i do
capital is yours
my thoughts were:
6:04 PM grigs have 4 cities
brian can have the 3 oldest inc capital
i'd like the plcaeholder as it has kilmorph. and land south of the capital
6:06 PM me: Well ideally I'd like all land west of where I popped the lizard to kill my scout.. It would give me both his land and what is properly his hinterland. But it is a bit too much to be demanding. But without at least some unclaimed land I've nowhere to go. All my unsettled land is tundra or worse (apart from a site to the west), Which city has the Kilimorph, some of my info is old, due to only one scout.
6:07 PM Kyan: placeholder
the one in the south west
me: south west of the capital? where you've sent Hive something #3?
Kyan: if you get everything west of that former ruins then i literally dont gain any tiles at all
6:08 PM yes
you could also plant a city east of ravus
6:09 PM meaning you get 3 established cities and room for two more
me: I know, as I said it's too ambitious. But if all I'm getting is Grigori settled land, I've no land to grow into apart from by conquest really.
6:10 PM I was actually going to ask about that site, as it's butting against your land, being neighbourly. When we get to swap maps I'll show you what I'd have done with grigori land.
How about if you give me a site by the Grigori copper (1E), and everything else as above?
6:11 PM Kyan: the copper south of the capital?
6:12 PM me: yeah., we could arrange it so that I get the copper and you get a corridor to the city you want
Kyan: hmm
6:13 PM me: it's worth thinking on. Maybe I could do up a rough paint map?
Kyan: bear with me a sec
6:14 PM me: Will I arm your bear for you too? Oh and what do you think of my win strategy, pretty ingenious heh?
6:15 PM Kyan: fuck, im crashing
brian, do you have skype?
6:16 PM me: no skype no. Never needed it.
Kyan: helpful as can talk about the split whilst looking at civ
rather than alt tab
me and krill use it a lot
6:17 PM if you get that copper/pigs spot
me: well my internet pattern will be changing soon, becoming more stop-start, hour or two a day.
Kyan: what exactly do i get? the kilmorph city and some unsable land with no water or food :S
*unusable
6:18 PM im happy to give you a favourable split, due to you being a bit further behind. but i do still intend to try and win and i cant afford to give everything away
me: Pity neither of us have cartography. The land is very good and there are a few river mouths to the SW, it'll need chain irrigation, but has resources (cotton, pig, dyes, and more I've not yet seen).
Kyan: cotton pig dyes would be taken by your copper city
heck, i can give you copper if you want it
6:19 PM i dont want the tile, its just some land im after
you're currently asking for a 5:1 ratio
6:20 PM my proposition gives you 3 established cities- far more valuable than just the raw land- and an excellent blocker production site on our border with pigs and many hills plus a river
6:21 PM me: It's frankly a lot better than what I have to use, mostl of which (unclaimed) is tundra squeezed in by mountains on one side and sea on the other.
Kyan: even better, it would be a plains hill plant and protect your existing city which blocked your land off that you fought with aca to get initially
6:23 PM me: Problem is with the three cities only, I've nowhere to defend against a (hypothetical) attack from the south by your self. And what I'm giving up is an 8*6 square of land (starting 3 tiles west of your border) which is half grass and half plains with river access in the west (ok not that deep, but chainable easily). It's fairly strong 2nd stage expansion land IMO.
6:24 PM Kyan: but how is that fair if you get the cities AND the unclaimed land?
6:25 PM me: I'd better draw a map. Give me ten minutes
[COLOR="Yellow"]Kyan[/COLOR]: sure
28 minutes
6:54 PM me: OK I've a map done, not to scale and it's rough. I'll put an explanation with it as it's a bit confusing (sorry).
19 minutes
7:14 PM me: Email sent. Took longer than 10 sorry
27 minutes
7:41 PM Kyan: sorry, back. was watering the plants
7:42 PM me: ooh, a botanist
Kyan: nah, missus would kill me if i didnt keep them alive though
and its been so hot lst few days
7:43 PM me: it has even over here. I know how obsessional women get over their gardens, my mother has a big one at home. Any thoughts on my email?
Kyan: just reading it now mate
me: let you digest it then
6 minutes
7:50 PM Kyan: my gmail is crashing a lot
me: get a better gmail. Do you have another account I can send to.
7:51 PM Kyan: ive read it all
me: replied to it?
Kyan: nah, was discussing with krill
but im kinda inclined to agree with him
me: which is?
Kyan: this deal favours you a huge amount
7:52 PM i get one very nice city site
plus a holy city (which isnt a hugely strong site in itself)
in exchange
you get 3 developed cities, one of which is a capital and guaranteed to have an academy
and 2 excellent sites
7:53 PM your blocker site, and north of that with the pigs/river/hills
basically, what's in it for us?
7:56 PM so a) you save a lot of forces, b) no risk of having to blow your world spell either offensively or defensively.
7:58 PM me: Those three cities are not developed at all, it's Acalostas playing not someone competent. There's lots of forest still around 100 turns in, almost no buildings in them (for example Ravus Sol has only a palisade! in it). What I'm giving up is land equal to 1.5 times the size of the three cities (minimum, and I know it's undeveloped but Acaostas' land is barely developed {frankly the AI would do better}). That land alone almost guarantees the win for you (you've a large slice of very strong land, and adding another civ's worth of strong land on top of it will probably be the tipping point).
8:00 PM Kyan: im looking ingame now
me: But honestly the best reason is that the only way I have of being remotely competitive is by getting at least what I want, otherwise I might as well throw it right here and now and look for another (fairer) game to join.
Kyan: your proposal doesnt give me another civs worth of land
i gain two cities

So breaking it down:
1) I apologise for sending the wrong save (turn98 instead of 99).
2) some derogatory comments about Acalostas.
3) talk about trade. I'm happy with corn & 4gpt (from the extra 10% Deruptus) for beer.
4) And now the trouble. I ask about the split after the war, and first of all gave my ideal situation (i.e. all) which I'd no hope of getting. Also it is only now I notice that placeholder is the Kilimorph holy city (was more interested in army composition than the city and never looked). I then enquire about the copper as Kyan says he wants placeholder and all the south, giving me 3 cities by Acalostas. He reacts like it is me demanding everything for nothing. so I say that I'll make up a map and send it on. We stopped up for a while due to doing jobs.
When we come back I make my ammended wish, i.e for the city by the mountains. He still won't budge, outrageously saying that I'm getting a lot more than him, 3 developed cities (ha!) for a city a good city site and nothing else. Frankly that is just bullshit right then and there.
He is getting a holy city, at least one strong site to the west of it, an insane site (copper/pig/silk/dyes, better by far than anything I have) and room to put one very good site (south by Archeron) at least (probably one more good spot south west) and place two cities which will give him an almost unbreakable defensive anchor into his core. All this while strategically holding a dagger over my heart if I even remotely misbehave (I know I've sanctuary but that is one shot, and I'm not at tech or army parity either).
In return (from him) I get three cities which will be good after a lot of work, and a very cramped site in the north that I'd take will he or nill he. Frankly I'm strategically better off as is than with the division he wants me to accept.

So I am pissed off and rightly so. He's being very high handed in the negotiations (despite professing all along that he's really doing this to help me out because of me being shafted by the start), giving me just enough rope to hang myself with and no more, and expecting me to roll over and play dead for the rest of the game.

So my thinking is to give the following ultimatum:

Either you accept the split as I put out in the map (which is still very advantageous in your direction (it will probably win you the game right there)), or all deals are of as of this moment.

Furthermore this will leave me with two options, either send the following off to Rawwking:

Rawwking, my old friend.
I find myself in an intolerable situation vis a vis Kyan, he effectively wants me to become his vassal after a planned war by both of us on Acalostas. Now I don't want this and will quit the game before agreeing.
So, I propose to you that you can have my land without a fight. It contains 4 cities spread across the northern lands, Nicker, Muff, Hospital and Limerick. Resources available are horse, cow, gold, silk, cotton, corn, sheep and fish (unfortunately outside BFC). There are further resources such as copper, fur and deer to the north in my (extremely unhospitable) back lines. In addition I have 7 workers scattered around my empire for your use as well.
If we come to an agreement, I will move out all my units and promise not to attack any of yours.
Unfortunately I have sent this missive to Kyan to try and persuade him to be reasnonable in negotiations. So you may find sanctuary in effect by the time you get here, and may even face Kyan in battle.

Yours,
Brian Shanahan.

Or I can just declare war on you and see how close to the stone-age I can pillage you before I get killed. I will lose the war eventually, but with a horde of four move horsemen, I'm sure I can do significant damage to you before then, maybe even enough to make sure you've no chance to win the game.

Needless to say if I take either of these options I will email Acalostas full details of all our negotiations, plans, and give him the best intelligence and advice I can to combat my soi-disant ally.

Yours in the hope that you will see sense.

Brian Shanahan.

Ded.-Lurkers I need your input on this, and I am willing to hold up the game for a while to let ye respond (i.e. 24 hours from when I get the next save).

[Sareln]

Intriguing. I'm going to have to turn this over in my head.

My initial thought is that you don't want to just throw in the towel and give your cities over to a 3rd. Instead, we want to kill as much stuff on our way out as possible. But that may not be necessary at all.

Kyan's known for his diplo and silver tongue, so it might be possible to play him if we're very very careful about it - basically make him think we've got a deal on the split before a massive stab with horsemen and his army out of position and in Alcostas' land instead of at home.

[Brian Shanahan]

Intriguing. I'm going to have to turn this over in my head.

My initial thought is that you don't want to just throw in the towel and give your cities over to a 3rd. Instead, we want to kill as much stuff on our way out as possible. But that may not be necessary at all.

Kyan's known for his diplo and silver tongue, so it might be possible to play him if we're very very careful about it - basically make him think we've got a deal on the split before a massive stab with horsemen and his army out of position and in Alcostas' land instead of at home.

Problem with that is if I continue as if current deals were on, then we have a NAP to turn 145. We need to either force a remotely equitable deal or call the whole thing off, and force a conclusion.

Frankly I'm wondering how much of a tiger Kyan realises I am when backed into a corner though. That may be my only advantage here, the fact that at the moment I'm going to hit hard, hit fast and hit often, and he's not really expecting it.

[Ichabod]

I'll try to give some comments later today, Brian, but it has been difficult to find time this last couple of days.

[Brian Shanahan]

I'll try to give some comments later today, Brian, but it has been difficult to find time this last couple of days.

No problem. I don't want anyone to be taking time away to help me if they're doing other things. But the help is appreciated.

[Brian Shanahan]

An interesting development:

[COLOR="Yellow"]Brian,

I'm not even sure where to start.

I guess summing up my thoughts would probably be the best place. I'm so utterly confused right now and probably mildly pissed off now if im being honest. All throughout this game, we've been allies. We regularly chat about not only game related matters, but off-topic stuff too. I considered you a friend that i would like to play a game with some other time rather than just a rival or potential ally in this one individual game.

Now whats happened? As best i can tell (which is difficult by your curt replies and going offline- despite being online the rest of the time and for a considerable period of time before. Yeah, a coincedence...), you are extremely annoyed with me because i won't accept your absurd proposal? Suddenly all previous correspondence is worthless and you refuse to talk because i do not immediately agree with you?

We are both playing with the intention of winning this game. That involves doing what is best for our civs. I did not expect us to reach an agreement immediately, it would be nigh on impossible. The only reason that you would be annoyed (if game related. If outside matters are affecting your mood then i sincerely apologise and wish you the best of luck in sorting anything out) that i can see, is that you think im being selfish. Which implies you think im getting the better side of a deal. This is where im stumped. Truly. I've tried to speak to you for clarification three times now and you've basically told me where to go each time. You remember when mackoti was rude to you at the start of the game? You told me how it put you on such a defensive and that you can't abide bullying and you've been plotting a grigori invasion ever since. Is that whats happening here? You think im bullying you.

I'm going to be blunt as you're not stupid. Get some perspective and stop being so defensive. You're looking for lovely light-blue coloured spectacles and you refuse to see any option than Grigori getting all war spoils? I try to point this out and you end the conversation immediately. If friends can't be blunt, then i dont know who can. I guarantee you one thing though- read my thread after the game and perhaps try to do it from a non-Elohim perspective.

To the land in question. I can't send you screenshots due to game rules so i'll describe each sites tiles and locations and you can check your own maps.

Four currently settled cities:

Capital. The Nameless City. Size 10. Will have at least an academy. In a river valley with corns and wine. Also has at least 4 hills (3 riverside) Most lucrative site on offer. (9/10)

Ravus Sol. Size 9.River valley hybrid site. Very good production potential but consists largely of riverside grassland. Has a cotton and overlaps wine with capital. Also has seven pines for potential strategic benefit. Good site. (7/10)

Rogue Encampment. Size 6. Coastal with pigs and spices. Mostly a production city. Has an unpopped dungeon. Average site (6/10)

Placeholder. Size 6. Kilmorph holy city. Has sheep. Weak city overall but has shrine potential. If shrine is built and religion widely spread, becomes a fantastic city. That would require an appropriate great person and significant hammer outlay to spread. Furthermore, it is not the intended religion for either of us so we will likely want to spread our own religions first. (3/10 rising to 8/10 with fully activated shrine)

There are also 3 worthy spots that are yet to be founded. these are:

S, SW of copper. This site would have grassland copper and dyes. Grass hill pigs and riverside grass silk. It also has four other riverside grasslands for farming. Goblin fort next to the city that would need to be cleared(which should be no bother). A very nice city site and potential strategic power of copper should not be underestimated. (8/10)

SE,SE,E,E,E of capital. This site would have riverside dyes. Ridiculous river valley. Marble for strategic benefit. TEN riverside grassland and a couple of grass hills. (8/10)

E,E,E, NE (or E again if Balseraph) of Ravus Sol. Site would have pigs and huge production potential. Would require some TLC and many farms before switching over to production. Reminds me of Marshall Mines from my PBEM4 game. (3/10 rising to 6/10 once developed)

Other potential land in the south is useless. It is barren and cannot be irrigated as Acherons culture absorbs the riverside tiles.Plains incense, many other plains tiles and plains ivory will not make a good citysite. Long term, i could probably settle 2E of the incense and share some of the floodplains from Locke'Cervantes but this would be a poor filler city. (2/10)

Those ratings are my opinions and i cant see any other viable sites. Maybe im missing something? If so, tell me! If you disagree with my ratings, then be logical and explain why so we can come to a fair arrangement. The above shows my feelings on the situation. You are offering me placeholder + the copper site. 11 points raising to 16 points if i make significant effort that cannot be ignored.). In exchange you want everything else... 33 points raising to 36. I assumed this was your starting position in negotiations but you've made it quite apparent that's not the case.

I can only assume you value the potential of the Kilmorph city far higher than i do. Fine- have it! It would fit with your cities far better anyhow. You can have all four of his cities if you want, but i would want all the lands yet to be settled in exchange. (25 raising to 30 points to you, 19 raising to 22 points to me). Even by my reckoning it's still largely in your favour and that's not including the fact that i would have to build 3 settlers.

Anyhoo, i'll go back to 'awaiting official correspondence' or whatever sarcastic way you put it but i'm not going to sacrifice what was potentially a good friendship and ingame alliance over something so petty without even trying (again).

Kyan[/COLOR]

This deal is a lot better than the previous one, it gives me all the cities of the Grigori and a position that I have at least some chance of defending myself when the Balseraphs decide to attack. To Illustrate this I've altered the spheres of influence pic I took a few days ago:

I added in some yellow circles where Kyan wanted cities originally and the routes he would take to my own cities, plus the one he already has that I'm looking at preparing defences against. Strategically that position would have given me no chance in a war (unless I could churn out huge numbers). He's stronger than me, more knowledgable than me (i.e. more techs, probably game knowledge too) far richer than me, and able to manoeuvre more easily in strategic terms. I would either have had to spam units in cities and hope he was as tactically one dimensional as the AI, or abandon the cities or finally vassalise (something I'm not about to do). Either giving me all the Grigori land or a decent defensive site from which I could use to cut lines of supply were my only options where I would feel even remotely safe.

So now I've got a deal where I get all the cities and give up the south, but in return I now have the leader (and probable runaway civ) annoyed with me, and knowing Krill, lusting after my blood. Well, it was to be expected with his initial demands, really. He wanted vassilisation I wouldn't give it. Thats a pretty big wedge to stick into a relationship.

Ok onto the meta of the message, his reaction to me being stubborn about getting a deal that allows me independance of manoeuvre:
1)Now whats happened? As best i can tell (which is difficult by your curt replies and going offline- despite being online the rest of the time and for a considerable period of time before. Yeah, a coincedence...), you are extremely annoyed with me because i won't accept your absurd proposal? Suddenly all previous correspondence is worthless and you refuse to talk because i do not immediately agree with you?

Yeah I was a bit of a shit not responding, but then again I could have been worse, I could have responded. But frankly you expect someone to be happy to sign vassilisation when they've not been put in a position that it's their only option?

2) We are both playing with the intention of winning this game. That involves doing what is best for our civs.

Well then why are you expecting me to accept a deal which is long-term not in my interests. I'm bloody well not going to do what is best for your civ unless it coincides with my interests.

3) His evaluation of the land, a) he's upping the value of Acalostas' land a lot ascribing to it the value it would have if I were playing Grigori from the start, not as it actually is. He's assuming a lot of things here, e.g. TheNamelessCity having an academy, and the land not being more than marginally developed when I get it. B) he's undervaluing the empty land to the south of the Grigori. There are two rivers he can chain irrigate from one in the west and north and one in the sout, giving him 3 starting points. With construction he has to irrigate 3 tiles south, 5 tiles west or 6 tiles north (being generous with skirting mountains) to get the plains irrigated to 3 food. He has the workers to do this (and if not he can get them easily).

He says I'm not stupid then why is he insulting me by insinuating that I'm expecting him to take the dregs from the arrangement and nothing else. As it stands the only difference between what I get and what he gets is the fact that he needs to build a few settlers (was going to write "couple of" but the Irish definition of couple is different than every one elses).

4) No mention of the strategic situation. As my father oh so delicately puts it, a blind dog with a mallet up it's ass would see that giving him what he wants would either lead to suicide or vassalisation on my part, at least now I have something I can defend, even if it will still be difficult.

I'm sorry Kyan, but you knew quite as well as I do that giving you placeholder and a corridor running up to it would mean that at the very minimum I would need a site that I could use to cut that line of attack in case of war.

5) [COLOR="Yellow"]
Anyhoo, i'll go back to 'awaiting official correspondence' or whatever sarcastic way you put it but i'm not going to sacrifice what was potentially a good friendship and ingame alliance over something so petty without even trying (again).[/COLOR]

So he thinks that there is only one side causing tension here, namely me. And that he is willing to give me something very advantageous, just to preserve friendship.
Ok the problems with this are thus:
1) Kyan hate to break it to you but we do not even know each other, never mind being close enough to be friends. Apart from my name and current home (and maybe my birthday) you know nothing about me, and I know even less about you. Yes we get on well in chats, and yes we have laughs, but you cannot have friends over the internet without going to the trouble of knowing each other personally. Friendship is not something you earn over a shared joke, it takes time and effort.
2) I wasn't the one who wasn't budging. I moved my defensive location away from the copper, knowing you really wanted that site. I was the one who was willing to put myself at a big strategic disadvantage to make a deal (i.e. giving the corridor to placeholder and ceding the site west of placeholder which is very good of itself {maybe not big enough for a BFC, but strong as is}), I was the one willing to actually go to the effort of detaling the land in order to show what was actually being traded. All you did was cut two chunks out of the land to make it look like you were getting nothing.
And 3) It comes back to this I was looking at the map and thinking strategically. If we count the tiles and yields I am probably getting a slightly better deal. But the fact of the matter is that Grigori land will be part of my core, and the land to the south Kyan's periphery. Allowing a slice of land which points directly at my core is a braindead move, unless I am getting something to balance it out. It would be like the US allowing Britain to take back the Carolinas after the war of 1812, just because elsewhere the US got the better of the deal in the war (which was a draw). It was never going to happen unless you gave me something in return.


I'll probably try to condense this down into a proper diplomatic reply, detailing my position and strategic reading politely, tomorrow. But essentially this is my position, and the main reason why I was (and still am) so willing to play a game of brinkmanship, and go so far as to committing sepukku in game).

[Brian Shanahan]

I have the save played will furnish a report tonight.

[Ichabod]

We would really benefit from a map trade with Acalostas. I'd put a lot of effort in getting one. I think he has some bacyard territory west of placeholder which could give us more land.

About Kyan: the deal he offers is good, but there's no way for us to correctly evaluate it without the map trade with Acalostas (he also has a lot of Kyan land explored, a pretty nice bonus). If you want to stall him, maybe say that you were worried about a possible attack from him after you finish Acalostas. You could say that I told you that I felt something strange was going on while I played the turns and that you started to worry. And after he wanted the city of placeholder, it started to seem obvious: it would be a crazy good point to start a invasion of Elohim lands.

You can put the discussion on hold due to the map trade too.

One thing to have in mind is that you have an assured way to get the Vitalize spell with Corlindale. With vitalize you could turn all the bad land to your north into decent land. It would take a long time, but it's something to note. If you could form a coalition in the sidelines against Kyan, maybe you could be in a very good position after the dust settles.

And don't mind about Kyan's diplo. It seem to be very similar to Lord Parkin's style. Stand your ground, he'll probably do a lot of patronizing (I don't know if that's a good word to describe it...), trying to show that he knows better. You don't have nothing to lose here, he has the victory in his hands. If worst comes to worst, he can't attack you for 30 turns.