[SPOILERS - PBEM19] Huayna Capac of Ottomans - yuris125 & Maestro

[Maestro]

Turn 85:

• Chopped Granary in at Dinamit. It was working unimproved tiles, so I 1-pop whipped it as well. Should give good overflow into whatever we build next.
  
• 1-pop whipped Granary at Monte Carlo. Drops growth from 3 to 2 turns.
  
• Moved 2 workers toward teal dot.
  
• Wasn't sure what you wanted to do with the worker N-NW of Ultra. I put in 1 turn of a chop.
  
• Where do we want Apostolic Palace? Ultra could build it fast, getting +100% hammers on all buildings now, plus several choppable forests. AP is 267 hammers.
  
• Ultra or Maximum should start pumping missionaries. OR gives +25% hammers on buildings, which we're constructing just about everywhere. We want that bonus. The extra shrine gold isn't bad either.
  
• Theology should be a 1-turn research next turn.
  

[yuris125]

Sent RL7 a cropped version of the red/orange dotmap, which doesn't show any cities or units. Offered them to pick the spot they prefer
* to look generous
* because I do think we would be fine with either of these spots

I would build Apostolic Palace in Maximum, because it still is the most productive city, and because Ultra with its commerce bonus would do better working on multiplier buildings (Market and, assuming we found Christianity, another Monastery). And for symbolic reasons too, having Apostolic Palace in the holy city feels right

[Maestro]

Turn 86:

• Finished Granary at Dinamit. Started lib, for borders. Should probably whip it as soon as we hit size 4, since we're working unimproved tiles.
  
• RL7 build Great Wall. Umm, good for them? Barbs are long gone... do they want the Great Spy points?
  
• Christianity founded in Best FM
  
• Started Courthouse in Rock FM
  
• Started Lighthouse in Monte Carlo
  
• GES founded another city, putting him 1 ahead of us. Of course we'll settle teal next turn.
  
• Demos are mediocre. We're #3 in GNP at 100%. We're just ahead of Commodore and MNG, and about 100 points behind GES. I think all 5 teams were at 100% research this turn.
  
• I know I mentioned it last turn, but I still believe that spreading Buddhism needs to be a priority for us. Shrine gold, AP buildings, OR bonus, border pops. Do want.
  

[yuris125]

Well, great spy could be useful for future golden ages, when you need more different types of great people. Probably. Maybe. Or his GPPs just increase GP generation in general

Let's spam missionaries out of Ultra after Market then. A 10% multiplier building can wait

[Maestro]

Another chat with Commodore

Commodore: Hey Maestro
Maestro: hey hey
Commodore: Figured out something I'd trade for my not trying for the Taj
Commodore: It might be moot if you're already building it, and heck, Barad-Dur seems to be playing the "gotta catch 'em all" game.
Maestro: heh heh
Maestro: Indeed they are
Commodore: You going to gun for the Sistine? The culture would hugely help me vs. MNG and GES
Commodore: I'm assuming the Hagia is yours already.
Maestro: Ahh, if you want to trade the 'rights' to Sistine for those to Taj, I'm happy to do that
Maestro: And, truthfully, no immediate plans for Hagia
Maestro: I should probably use complete sentences. We have no immediate plans for Hagia
Commodore: Really? Because I'm hurting for worker turns and I have marble.
Commodore: The Hagia might be worth it for me.
Commodore: Yeah, I'll avoid going for the Taj unless I'm at Nationalism far before Radioland.
Commodore: Naturally, RL7 is a threat for any wonder, not matter if its big or small.
Maestro: correct
Commodore: Holy crap they have GPP points in that capital.
Maestro: though I think GES is a lock for Liberalism an thus has a serious shot at Taj
Maestro: though I don't believe they have marble
Commodore: Although it's going to be hell to get any specific kind of GP for them.
Commodore: GES have paper yet?
Maestro: Yeah, 2 turns ago :-/
Commodore: I missed checking for map tradability.
Commodore: Ah, well, that relaxes things for me then.
Commodore: I could get paper in ~5 turns, but it's not worth ignoring other economy techs to do so.
Commodore: The MNG imbrogilo oddly distorted my tech tree.
Maestro: brb actual work to do ;-)
Commodore: np
Maestro: ok, back
Maestro: yeah, my tech-pathing in general isn't the strongest. I have a hard tiem not trying to do everything
Maestro: in SP I usually can :-p
Commodore: It's an education, leme tell ya.
Commodore: GES is killing it here.
Maestro: agreed
Commodore: I need to figure out if he's going to be going for rifle-conquest or up to infantry.
Maestro: I've heard a lot of noise about RL7 and MNG being runaways (mostly form each other) but nothing from GES. We've been worried about him since turn 60 or so :-/
Commodore: Yeah, it's silly.
Commodore: MNG is decidedly not a runaway now.
Commodore: It boggles my mind how the two biggest threats are next to each-other and yet not fighting.
Commodore: Makes me wonder about NAPs and secret plans.
Maestro: RL7s power has been rising
Maestro: we're NAP'd with him 'til 111
Commodore: Oh please attack GES.
Commodore: GES has been consistently under-playing RL7's potential.
Commodore: They have the Pyramids, and a CY to make the specialist economy very strong.
Maestro: Correct. And specialist is strongest right now
Commodore: Seven is a very good diplomat, he's great at pumping for information and giving away nothing.
Maestro: I think everybody went 100% research last turn:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30680543/RBPBEM19/086-GNP.JPG
Maestro: it's clearly GES, then RL7, then everybody else
Commodore: I asked him about your war (not letting on you guys had been discussing it with me) and he never let a hint slip about what had happened.
Commodore: Fortunately, that's me at 70%
Maestro: aha
Maestro: well you're ahead of us then, 'cause that's 100% for us
Commodore: I'll be GA'ing soon (5ish turns?) so I can probably compete for a bit longer.
Commodore: But I'm in 5th for CY and MFG
Maestro: probably a reflection of less land
Commodore: Yeah.
Commodore: It's going to be hard to catch up there.
Commodore: Honestly, not sure how best to pull anything off.
Commodore: Hrm
Maestro: I'm not sure either
Commodore: Maybe you could offer to help GES and I could help RL7 if they fight?
Maestro: I definitely would like to seem them fight
Commodore: Or vice versa.
Maestro: I think if we offer to help RL7 and you offer to help GES, then they both have sercured their flanks, as it were
Maestro: might make them more likely to actually try to gain something
Commodore: My NAP with GES is 'till 100 firmly, but it's got an auto-renew per turn with a 10-turn warning period.
Commodore: Ah, yeah, that'd square with our NAPs too.
Commodore: Encourage those gains!
Maestro: heh heh
Commodore: Trouble is, we don't want either to actually make hardcore gains.
Maestro: true, but attacking is hard
Maestro: besides, I'd prefer a clear-cut #1 dogpile target :-p
Commodore: Nobody should care about my hub stuff, it's a marginal improvement. Good, but not game-breaking.
Maestro: yeah, the hub land is marginal at best
Commodore: But if someone gets a second core?
Maestro: I doubt either of them would be able to make such decisive gains
Maestro: although RL7's capital is 1-off the coast
Commodore: Hrm
Maestro: an amphibious dive could probably raze it if they aren't garrisoning strongly. And they have approximately 73 wonders there.
Commodore: If I was GES, I'd be calling MNG daily to encourage him to take part in an RL7 invasion.
Commodore: Odd that they haven't been working together.
Commodore: Post-astro, they are the main threats to RL7
Commodore: Some of the success of the Middle Earthers will be in how the RNG provides GP from that GPP soup they have.
Commodore: A Great Spy would hurt.
Maestro: heh heh
Maestro: indeed
Maestro: I poseted this exactly in my turn report: "RL7 build Great Wall. Umm, good for them? Barbs are long gone... do they want the Great Spy points?"
Commodore: On the other hand, GMs or GSes just scream "settle us"
Commodore: It's going to be hell to dogpile them.
Commodore: Zeus and the Great Wall
Commodore: Lots of Great Generals, horrible war weariness.
Maestro: they should build Chicken Pizza and be done with it :-)
Commodore: Hah
Commodore: I wonder if they do have music...
Commodore: Religion is the one thing they haven't been working on
Maestro: yeah
Maestro: and they're accepting (or spreading) confu
Commodore: A great prophet would suck for them unless they can trade him with GES
Maestro: which is again confusing to me
Commodore: Seven did explain that
Commodore: It's the only thing that had spread to their cap in the golden age.
Commodore: They just took advantage of the no-anarchy.
Maestro: Fair enough. We're making Buddhism the AP religion. Maybe that'll convince them to switch, for the hammers.
Commodore: Hah.
Commodore: Be nice to make 'em unhappy if you make resolutions too.
Maestro: heh heh
Commodore: Oh, by the way. what's your free spread count? Mine is still at 1.
Commodore: (brb_
Maestro: We got 1 preshine, and I think we've had 2 post shrine. Not positive about that.
Maestro: Somewhere in there MNG got a spread also. Not sure when that happened.
Commodore: Sorry, actual work
Commodore: Back
Maestro: np
Maestro: We founded pretty early, and used GPPs from Oracle to get a Prophet first
Commodore: Yeah, I had an annoying time getting that Prophet
Maestro: I'll bet
Maestro: you must have had to run priests
Commodore: Yep
Maestro: which means temples
Commodore: Which, yep, sucks.
Maestro: yeah
Commodore: Ah well, at least I'll have my academy GS soon
Commodore: You guys about to fire any GP for those nice 12-turn GAs?
Commodore: See: Pitboss 4
Maestro: they'll be 9-turns on Quick
Commodore: That MoM is going to play a huge role in keeping you in this.
Commodore: Ah, darn
Commodore: Still
Maestro: but no, we've only Made a prophet and a scientist, and those became a shrine and an academy, respectively
Maestro: Yeah, a good Golden Age is really our best bet to stay relevant. Barring other teams smashing into each other, that is.
Commodore: Get those fishing villages cranking 2/0/5 tiles.
Commodore: That'll have an impact.
Commodore: Not to mention, you can actually switch around for predicable GPP
Commodore: I'm thinking about taking a detour to Philo for pacifism during the GA
Commodore: Heh heh.
Commodore: "me: salute and early congrats on Liberalism.
jtgoldsmith: Thanks, we'll chat soon.
Gotta run.
Work and such.
me: np.
Sent at 12:51 PM on Friday"
Maestro: Interesting
Maestro: I wonder when he'll actually be able to finish it
Maestro: it = Liberalism
Commodore: Able to, or will?
Commodore: He's a lock for it.
Commodore: But I should probably still go up that tech chain just to keep him honest.
Maestro: Oh, he'll get it. 'am just wondering when
Maestro: yeah, it'd be a real bugger if he was able to hold out 1 turn away and pick up an even better free tech
Commodore: Can't let him delay to get some ridiculously costly tech
Commodore: Hrm
Commodore: Could go for nationalism directly and force him to get it if he wants the Taj
Commodore: Constitution is a good tech that nullifies RL7's advantage.
Commodore: Maybe if you guys went the unconventional Divine Right -> Nationalism
Maestro: If it matters to you, we're highly likely to beeline Nationalism
Commodore: Ah, that relieves a little pressure.
Commodore: I'd rather you guys get it than GES.
Commodore: You going to nab Islam too?
Commodore: I'm trying to max out the monasteries in my cap, might buy missionaries from you there.

tl;dr

• He wants Hagia and/or Sistine. He will avoid Taj.
  
• We agree that GES and RL7 are the front runners. We discuss how nice it would be if they would attack each other.
  
• He might buy missionaries from us. That'd be a-ok with me
  

[Maestro]

Turn 87

• Founded teal dot. Temporarily called is Area 93, which is a rock station here in Denver. Maintenance went up 14 gpt after founding.
  
• Settler popped from Maximum. Sent it toward the hub.
  
• Started Apostolic Palace in Maximum. ETA 7 turns.
  
• Chopped market in Ultra. 75 commerce means market generates 18.75 gold per turn at 0% science.
  
• Queued Buddhist missionaries at Ultra. The first one should probably go to Echo of Moscow, which will grow into unhappiness in 2 turns.
  
• Whipped a granary at Radio 7
  
• Noticed that a border expansion from Rock FM (due in 9 turns) will open a fish tile E-E of Retro FM. In in ideal world, we'd have a work boat ready and waiting.
  
• 2 workers arrived at the tundra hill deer at Area 93. After camp that will be a 3/2/0 tile. Sadly, that'll be one of the better tiles in the central hub area.
  
• Set research to 0%. At our current 100% tech rate, Philosophy takes 2 turns and Nationalism takes 7. It may drop to 6 with overflow. I propose we save enough money to research both before switching back to 100%. There will likely be a legitimate race for Taj, so I'd like for us to try to optimize, to get it as quickly as possible.
  

[yuris125]

In Echo of Moscow, add a Settler, build it for a turn, then 3pop-whip. It will solve happiness problems and give overflow for Moai

I would still send the first missionary to Echo, because OR bonus helps with wonders (maybe wait with the whip until this, to get OR bonus on overflow. Maybe slow-build a Worker first to avoid unhapiness). Also Best is high priority; it's close to the happy cap, and now that it's a Christian holy city, it will never get a natural spread

Best can build a WB for Retro FM after the Courthouse - good call!

We can whip a Lib in Europa Plus, Lighthouse in Retro FM once it grows to 4, Lib in Dinamit FM once it grows to 4, Lighthouse in Monte Carlo asap. Give Monte Carlo the sugar tile at Maximum for faster growth

We need to cottage riverside grassland tiles which Monte Carlo can get, chopping the forest from one of them

City names:
Teal dot - NRJ
Hub city - Love Radio
City on the northern coast - Next FM
White dot - City FM
Cape to the east of Rock - Radio Dacha

[yuris125]

T88 - pretty much as described in the previous post

MNG got a great merchant

RL7 apparently have a city on the 2-tile island to the east of Retro FM. This somewhat decreases attractiveness of the location on the cape. But probably still worth founding

[yuris125]

Had a short chat with Commodore. Briefly discussed expansion plans, we have no conflicts. Tested the waters for buying silver from him, he would be willing to trade it for gpt, at the price of no_of_cities/2, rounded up. This sounds fair to me, and we could use silver in a few turns; our happy cap is currently 14 in cities with Buddhism and a Buddhist Temple (which we don't have at the moment, but will have soon ). Silver would raise it by 2. I would strongly consider it after we get Nationalism

[Maestro]

Turn 89:

• Moved Settler toward hub. We need to figure out his destination very soon.
  
• RL7 birthed a Great Engineer :thumbsdow
  
• RL7 show whales for trade, meaning they have optics. I choose to read this as good: Compass + Optics is 800 beakers not invested toward Nationalism. With that GE, they could stamp out Taj very quickly.
  
• Whipped Library at Dinamit
  
• Started Market at Best. Rock FM should be able to pop a workboat after courthouse, and still have it on Retro's fish in time for the border pop. Should be perfectly timed, in fact. If there's something more pressing at Best, I'm all ears.
  
• Workers at NRJ finished camping deer. They should road that tile before moving to furs, since NRJ won't be able to work furs in time anyway. Saves us the lost worker actions of moving back into the forest later.
  
• I think we should whip the Granary at Retro next turn. It'll techincally stack the whip anger, but it's so small it doesn't matter. Granary is worth it.
  
• Started a courthouse at Europa. It has all of 1 hammer per turn, so anything we build there will take forever unless whipped.
  
• RL7 is even with us in city count again. I wonder if they founded in the hub? As far as I know they have not responded to our e-mail about setting rights.