[SPOILERS] Fire and Blood: Nyles Standish and Zalson watch the world burn

[Zalson]

hammerhammer

GG dcodea; multiplayer is tough beast. The first MP I played, I boated someone with two swords and felt like hot stuff.

The second game I played, I got sniped with a single chariot, I think by Ruffhi.

Now let's go see about putting the on pindicator. In like 700 years or so.

[dcodea]

In doing so, we've become successful in our dick-hunting mission.

Nice.

GG dcodea; multiplayer is tough beast. The first MP I played, I boated someone with two swords and felt like hot stuff.

The second game I played, I got sniped with a single chariot, I think by Ruffhi.

Thanks, Zalson, gg.

[Zalson]

Nyles, going to jump in and take some screenshots. if you want me to play the turn so we can roll things over faster, let me know. i'll leave some notes in the game so that you can get my input in game without necessarily having to check the thread.

NEVERMIND #steamupdate #crashingout #funtimes

[Zalson]

Doing some thinking: let's get 2 workers out of Valyria and volantis in the next few turns if we can. Should be able to get 1 each out of Tyrosh, Kings Landing, maybe even dragonstone. We need the worker labor a whole bunch.

I'll try to come up with a decent worker plan tonight.

[Zalson]

Crank research to 100%, writing in 2T

T82
Valyria: Worker (1)
Volantis: Settler (2)
King’s Landing Lighthouse > workboat (4) - slow build it. once we get the fish, whip the next boat.
Tyrosh: switch off the axe(1) to worker (4)
Dragonstone: off axeman (8) to monument (15)
Myr: cancel archer, switch back to granary (5)
Alison (Rosby?) R1 > switched to a monument. It’s probably the best city to leave ungarrisoned.

Maybe this axe here goes and explores OT4E?

Here’s my justification:

We have the 3rd best power, behind … pindicator and OT4E. That’s why you’re investing heavily in the military — but we can fight them to a draw now, I think. I’d favor workers and settlers to get our economy on its feet. That way, we can compete with them. If they both attack, even then, we're not dead -- if we can tech construction.

I made a bunch of tile changes; we need to invest into the cottages. We get the bonus at 3c, right? maybe that's a bad plan, then...



Maybe we send a chariot S (or the axe in Dragonstone that will eventually complete)

Workers:

A(egor) cottage silks N of Volantis
B(ronn) cottage silks N of Volantis
C(onnington) cottage silks N of Volantis
D(aemon) - cottage silks N of Volantis
F(ranky) - move to forest 1NW of Dragonstone — chop a worker T83
H(arry) - move to forest 1NW of Dragonstone — chop a worker T83



I moved the workers toward the ungarrison cities of myr and tyrosh.

The big move is volantis: I 2x whipped the settler. The overflow can complete a worker. So I whipped it.

Glad I could play a turn, too.

Our land, for posterity (since that appears to be the only person who is paying attention)




Current tentative worker plan

T83:
A cottage 1/5
B cottage 2/5
C cottage 3/5
D cottage 4/5
F chop 1
H chop 2
E (new) : cottage 5/5

Valerie: start worker(?)
Volantis: start worker. settler goes to the 2x fish spot. (a or b)
Tyrosh: 2x whip the worker.
My: switch to the furs and the horses. give the pigs back to volantis?

T84:
A cottage 1/5
B cottage 2/5
C cottage 3/5
D cottage 4/5
E cottage 5/5
F camp x/4
H camp x-1/4
G (new volantis):1 NW farm
I (new, Tyrosh): move to silk SE of King’s Landing
J (new, Vaylria): move N-N and cottage (1/5)

Pindicator and OT4E have 8/7 cities (or 9/8?) respectively. We’ll have that in … 3 turns?

Pindicator logged in … after i ended the turn. That might not be a good thing; but it looks like he’s founding 3E 1S of Gont.

Questions:

What do we do with our Great General?

Where do we found city #8?



And, most importantly, we need mercenary names that start with:
E
G
I
J

Lurkers?

Also, I renamed all the units that weren't named -- and promoted Barristan and Jamie to chariots.

[Zalson]

Now that I think about it: A and Z are the significantly better spots.

I also think that my desire to work cottages rather than the coast is an error. We NEED those tile yields. We can work cottages later once we get monarchy.

[NylesStandish]

With regards to the city placement, part of me wants to found on the sugar for the 3 food city tile. That city gets ivory and a lot of food in the second ring but no food resources first ring other than the sugar itself. We could send 3 workers and farm one of the river tiles, grow in 6 turns, whip a monument and possibly cottage over the farm later. That cuts off the whale, though, and is a lot of food for a single city. We could use that for a GP farm or to fuel SA whipping in the future, though.

B is probably better though, being closer and leaving the option to work the sugar; doesn't get the ivory or wheat, though. I also like A since it can get the fish hooked up fast. The next closest northern city would have to be Z or on the ivory or wheat. I don't like that X is even farther than the sugar city and only leaves room for a mediocre filler city south or southeast of B which can grab a single fish second ring.

Settling the GG will give more total experience than attaching him to a unit only after 10 units produced, but the extra 2 experience allows double promoted units with a barracks. We could get settle him and get City Garrison III Archers out of the box for that extra peace of mind, or Shock, Cover, City Raider II, Medics or whatever.

I was considering attaching the GG to Jon Snow or Arya for the free upgrades and to maybe soup up some other units. Or, we could attach it to a single unit and get a Medic III unit. If we get the medic then it's usually best to put it on a unit that's not likely to defend; since Chariots don't receive defensive bonuses and have a relatively low combat strength they're likely to be among the last units in a stack to have to fight, which aids the survival of the medic.




Not 100% sure but it looks to me like Pindicator just got Horseback Riding or something and started building a shitload of units all of a sudden. Luckily that spike seems to have leveled off, but he could begin in earnest again at any time. I agree that, on paper, we have enough to hold against him, but a lot of our units are injured and just now getting into position to actually participate in a defense against him. I thought that he might try to attack us after we finished off dcodea since he could infer that a large number of our forces could be out of position. He also has the advantage of being able to force us to defend Volantis and Valyria simultaneously since he can get units in position to attack either one while giving us only one turn to react and no production before he strikes. If my actions seem overly paranoid, the power graphs are part of why. The turn before you played I panic whipped an Archer because of this, but we can probably spare him to go north. Now that our units are back from the west we can probably actually hold pindicator off.




I had the chariots on the path so that they could respond to either an attack on Volantis or Valyria and at least provide some extra meatshields but cottaging the silk in one turn and covering the workers was good. Overall, the worker micro plan is about as good as anything I would have come up with.

Also moved Arya and Jon back where they were because defense, but now that our units are back they're better off in the rear unless we GG one of them and upgrade. Tyrosh definitely does need military defense to avoid unnecessary unhappiness so if I don't put the GG on Jon I'll probably send him to Tyrosh in a turn or two. I realized Tyrosh was in unhappiness after sending Jon back, so I fortified a heavily damaged axe there. Myr can wait a bit longer for a defender.

I switched Volantis to a workboat since it can finish it in one turn without wasting overflow. There wasn't quite enough production to finish the worker in one turn, but we can put the overflow from that into another worker. The workboat will go to the crabs at Myr which are within our borders now, giving Myr food of its own so we don't have to choose between growing Volantis or Myr at the same time or can grow Myr extra fast with the food.

Not sure how many more workers we need; few more than the number of cities is probably sufficient at this stage of the game.

On cottages vs coast: off the top of my head I think it takes 50 turns for a financial cottage to put out more total commerce than a financial coast:

Coast beats non river cottage by 2 for the first 10 turns: coast 20 commerce ahead
After becoming a hamlet, financial bonus kicks in and yields are equal for 20 turns before growing again: coast still 20c ahead
After becoming village, coast loses by 1c/turn and takes 20 more turns before village overcomes it.
Total: 50 turns for cottages to come out ahead.

Using the same line of reasoning, river tiles (which give no financial bonus in this mod ) beat coast after 40 total turns. Silks and river silks cottages start out at the same commerce yield as coast and only get larger.

If we can secure the Colossus, then those payback times get even larger (I think 120 turns for a non river non bonus resource cottage). Given the amount of water in this map it's great and would prevent OT4E from continuing his wonder streak. Colossus also lets us get by with fewer workers since a smaller portion of the tiles we'll be working will need to actually be improved.

[Zalson]

With regards to the city placement, part of me wants to found on the sugar for the 3 food city tile. That city gets ivory and a lot of food in the second ring but no food resources first ring other than the sugar itself. We could send 3 workers and farm one of the river tiles, grow in 6 turns, whip a monument and possibly cottage over the farm later. That cuts off the whale, though, and is a lot of food for a single city. We could use that for a GP farm or to fuel SA whipping in the future, though.

B is probably better though, being closer and leaving the option to work the sugar; doesn't get the ivory or wheat, though. I also like A since it can get the fish hooked up fast. The next closest northern city would have to be Z or on the ivory or wheat. I don't like that X is even farther than the sugar city and only leaves room for a mediocre filler city south or southeast of B which can grab a single fish second ring.

A and X have the best short term benefits. I'd prefer both of them but, you know, rules.

Maybe we found on the sugar up north? With wine and sheet in 2nd ring -- also it can share the wheat with Z?

B is a canal city, which is nice. My concern is that is is nothing doing for 20T.

A and Z have the benefit of workable tiles in the first ring. Additionally, we can chop Z into something in A -- maybe the monument? Z is overall much better but I don't think we should grab it early.

Settling the GG will give more total experience than attaching him to a unit only after 10 units produced, but the extra 2 experience allows double promoted units with a barracks. We could get settle him and get City Garrison III Archers out of the box for that extra peace of mind, or Shock, Cover, City Raider II, Medics or whatever.

I was considering attaching the GG to Jon Snow or Arya for the free upgrades and to maybe soup up some other units. Or, we could attach it to a single unit and get a Medic III unit. If we get the medic then it's usually best to put it on a unit that's not likely to defend; since Chariots don't receive defensive bonuses and have a relatively low combat strength they're likely to be among the last units in a stack to have to fight, which aids the survival of the medic.

I don't think we need a GG medic yet, right? I think settling is the right move -- but where? I'd say we should settle it in Tyrosh, since that'll be a heroic epic city -- but it won't be, because it isn't coastal. Hmmm.

Not like he's burning a hole in our pocket though. Right?

Not 100% sure but it looks to me like Pindicator just got Horseback Riding or something and started building a shitload of units all of a sudden. Luckily that spike seems to have leveled off, but he could begin in earnest again at any time. I agree that, on paper, we have enough to hold against him, but a lot of our units are injured and just now getting into position to actually participate in a defense against him. I thought that he might try to attack us after we finished off dcodea since he could infer that a large number of our forces could be out of position. He also has the advantage of being able to force us to defend Volantis and Valyria simultaneously since he can get units in position to attack either one while giving us only one turn to react and no production before he strikes. If my actions seem overly paranoid, the power graphs are part of why. The turn before you played I panic whipped an Archer because of this, but we can probably spare him to go north. Now that our units are back from the west we can probably actually hold pindicator off.

If he spikes up again, then I'd be more paranoid. For now, I think we're fine. I think perhaps he was keeping pace with us; that's a good way to dissuade an attack.

I had the chariots on the path so that they could respond to either an attack on Volantis or Valyria and at least provide some extra meatshields but cottaging the silk in one turn and covering the workers was good. Overall, the worker micro plan is about as good as anything I would have come up with.

Thanks!

Also moved Arya and Jon back where they were because defense, but now that our units are back they're better off in the rear unless we GG one of them and upgrade. Tyrosh definitely does need military defense to avoid unnecessary unhappiness so if I don't put the GG on Jon I'll probably send him to Tyrosh in a turn or two. I realized Tyrosh was in unhappiness after sending Jon back, so I fortified a heavily damaged axe there. Myr can wait a bit longer for a defender.

Yeah, the unhappiness in Tyrosh was the whole reason I did it. I agree that we should use warriors for internal defense.

I switched Volantis to a workboat since it can finish it in one turn without wasting overflow. There wasn't quite enough production to finish the worker in one turn, but we can put the overflow from that into another worker. The workboat will go to the crabs at Myr which are within our borders now, giving Myr food of its own so we don't have to choose between growing Volantis or Myr at the same time or can grow Myr extra fast with the food.

Not sure how many more workers we need; few more than the number of cities is probably sufficient at this stage of the game.

Good call with the Volantis workboat.

I think, once we get the current crop of workers out, we'll have 11 workers for 8 cities? I think we will need more as we keep expanding -- but not of the infra is particularly compelling and we were happy capped.

On cottages vs coast: off the top of my head I think it takes 50 turns for a financial cottage to put out more total commerce than a financial coast:

Coast beats non river cottage by 2 for the first 10 turns: coast 20 commerce ahead
After becoming a hamlet, financial bonus kicks in and yields are equal for 20 turns before growing again: coast still 20c ahead
After becoming village, coast loses by 1c/turn and takes 20 more turns before village overcomes it.
Total: 50 turns for cottages to come out ahead.

Using the same line of reasoning, river tiles (which give no financial bonus in this mod ) beat coast after 40 total turns. Silks and river silks cottages start out at the same commerce yield as coast and only get larger.

I think working coast is the better idea until we can grow large enough to work the cottages and coast. Once we can get the hamlet + financial bonus, we should try to only work them, because they have the potential for an improved yield.

So I guess our rule is: coast until we can grow/work the cottage to be a hamlet. Once a hamlet, work the hamlets (unless we have a lighthouse lake). Writing it down makes it more likely (I hope), that I'll do this.

If we can secure the Colossus, then those payback times get even larger (I think 120 turns for a non river non bonus resource cottage). Given the amount of water in this map it's great and would prevent OT4E from continuing his wonder streak. Colossus also lets us get by with fewer workers since a smaller portion of the tiles we'll be working will need to actually be improved.

I think we'll still want the workers but colossus does as a whole 'nother benefit. I just don't foresee us getting metal casting any time soon; it's monarchy or bust, right?

EDIT: removed line breaks.

[Zalson]

Our happy cap is 6, going on 7 with the whales at King Landing right? Then KL should whip 1 WB ASAP -- and then we need to get those cows improved!

Missing improvements:
+2 cottages at Myr
+1 farm at Tyrosh, Myr
+2 cows, King's Landing
+1 camp, Dragonstone
+1 pasture, Dragonstone

That's 7 more worker improvements we want in much sooner than 7 turns. That's why i wanted more workers: we need, what, 22 worker turns plus move time? Plus we have 2 new cities we want to run up north, at minimum.

We also need 4 work boats (2 KL, 1 Dragonstone, 1 Myr). And maybe 2 more cottages near Volantis so that it can continue to share the pigs with Myr.

I'll see what kind of plan I can come up with to do that. We also need to get another scout out but I think the chariots can serve that purpose (have one go up north to check out the NE and one go west/south?

[Zalson]

We also want to get some galleys up on both seas. That way we can boat pindicator if possible and prevent him from doing the same think. We're okay on the NW sea, SE sea, but NE sea is an problem. That means that 'Z' is the stronger site.