[SPOILERS] ARRR Ye Scurvy Dogs! Hannah the Irin

[Mardoc]

Well, it doesn't look like the save is coming around tonight, so have some diplo instead:

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Sir Yellow,

My sympathies on the lost city last turn. I had hoped, when I saw Thoth's power plateau, that it meant he had no more offensive ability. Best of luck in the remaining war! Hopefully I can help at some point, although it appears there's a greater urgency than I had realized.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Cyan"]Actually i'll be signing peace with Thoth this turn. You can thank those backstabbing elven farts for that.

I held off Thoth motivated by the fact that i had the support of other sides in the conflict, including you and the elves. I've waited for the moment to actually strike back, having the manpower to do it and that meant waiting for elven reinforcement to push Thoth away.

Well it was all a charade to take my eastern lands, which is the only thing left that keeps me in this.
I'm done with this game, NAP with elves runs out in 3 turns and i'll be focusing all my efforts on them, who right now have been slaving away the current largest military at the moment. Thoth will sadly be a factor i no longer care about.

I'll do one last thing i'd like to do before i go all military and that's a map deal with you, which have pretty much been the only contact that i now fully trust (even though the far distance between us attributes to that). I got pretty much the whole continent drawn out.
I'll also keep your true motivations a secret.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]I am, frankly, surprised; I would have thought the elves, of all people, would have preferred a balance of power until the late game, and not to share a border with someone who's already demonstrated a willingness to fight for land. I mean, I don't claim to be entirely altruistic, but I certainly wanted you to win.

I'm also a bit surprised Thoth is willing to sign peace, and hope that doesn't mean that it's my turn to fight Malakim swords in the desert. It's unfortunate that the distance meant I wasn't able to do any more for you than one and a half turns of copper, but I certainly won't turn down your map if you're inclined to share. Scouting has been one of the weaker points in my game, although I'm not terribly thrilled with my position in any event.

If it's really that close to your end, feel free to drop by my lurker thread when you're out of the game. Although I'll keep my fingers crossed that you can hold on and at least see one of them die before you do :-)[/COLOR].

[COLOR="Cyan"]Hah, i really doubt someone else will be the first out, in that case i have to be very lucky on my rolls.

Anyway, situation is that i'm forced to abondon my capital, which is a ravaged husk compared to the 2 untouched yet poorly defended cities in the east. Abondoning it really hurts, but i have more to gain on defending my other 2 cities.

Oh and i should have said "attempt to sign peace". Thoth isn't interrested, having the army solely made to whipe me out.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Ah, I see. I had thought you'd have a chance, given the assumption that Thoth was signing peace with you. That not actually being the case, yeah, you're in for some pain.

I still don't think I understand Nyktorion's choice here, but that's got nothing to do with the likely results. If I'm lucky, he's willing to treat Thoth the way he treated you, and turns out to regret it.

On a wholly personal level, thanks for sticking with the game and being so quick to turn around saves, despite your position in it. I think I'd have had trouble staying motivated in your shoes. Maybe next game, you play the Clan and bash their pointy ears in? ;-)[/COLOR]

[DaveV]

Sir Yellow giving you his map as a parting gift would be nice, but don't trade maps with him. Knowledge is power, and you don't want other players learning the layout of your land for free. You read FFHPBEM1, right?

I agree that it seems like a bad idea for the elves to attack Sir Yellow instead of propping him up, but it's hard to know what their angle is. Sir Yellow seems to feel betrayed by them, so keep that in mind for any future relationship.

[Mardoc]

Sir Yellow giving you his map as a parting gift would be nice, but don't trade maps with him. Knowledge is power, and you don't want other players learning the layout of your land for free. You read FFHPBEM1, right?

I would definitely prefer if he gave me his map rather than traded for it. I'm considering the possibility that if I share mine, he'll die before he's willing to trade it to anyone else, but hopefully that situation doesn't come up. In particular, I don't want anyone to know for sure about my backlines city sites or the island (if it is an island).

It's crossed my mind to gift him a city a la Sareln, but I think all in all, it's not worth it to guarantee Thoth and/or Nyktorion wanting my blood, especially when all he'd have to offer is Law, Spirit, or Earth mana. I doubt he'd make it to Fanaticism or have developed Towns in any reasonable length of time, either, so he wouldn't be much of a military help.

I agree that it seems like a bad idea for the elves to attack Sir Yellow instead of propping him up, but it's hard to know what their angle is. Sir Yellow seems to feel betrayed by them, so keep that in mind for any future relationship.

Well, the obvious consideration is that with Ljo archers, Gilden, and March of the Trees, they feel confident in their ability to hold anything they take, so this is a straight-up landgrab. I'll admit, I'm not sure why it's worth lying to Sir Yellow about when they could have just said 'oh, that's too bad' and move in themselves eventually.

It only makes any sense to me if the east is more crowded, so that they're already done with their peaceful expansion. I suppose I'll find out one way or another as I get more info.

I suppose, in retrospect, there's a third possibility - Thoth has mentioned Bannor 'pushy land demands'. Suppose these were real, and not just limited to his diplo with Thoth? The subject never came up between the Bannor and me, due to distance, but it's vaguely possible that his diplo style rubs his direct neighbors the wrong way.

But yes, definitely got to keep my eye on Ljosalfar capabilities, not their words.

[Mardoc]

Dang it, Sir Yellow did ask for a trade, not a gift. Keeping my fingers crossed that this is just to satisfy his own curiosity and not a map to buy peace with, I decided to accept. If this comes back to bite me, Dave, you can definitely say you told me so. But now I'm gambling that Sir Yellow is in fact embittered enough to keep this knowledge a secret from here on.

Sir Yellow was right, though, he's got a lot explored! Here's a sampling; if you want more details on any particular spot, just let me know and I'll add them:











So, to sum up - dang, we've got a lot of land on this map! And a very big chunk of it is desert. Yet, the civs bordering desert are me, Thoth, and WarriorKnight, who either like the desert or have water mana. It looks like my natural partners will be Irgy and Nyktorion, since they're furthest removed from me. Although Irgy does have several coastal cities that could be pretty easy to sneak attack with OO on boats, it's probably not worth the maintenance cost that would entail.

It also looks like Sir Yellow got pretty well squeezed between the mountains, Thoth, and Nyktorion.

And, what I discovered for myself this turn:





It looks like the island is definitely an island, albeit a large one; I'm definitely going to have to get it explored and dotmapped in the near future.

In other news, the Giant decided finally to kill a Warrior, killing one of the Settler escorts. The settler scuttled into place to found the city, and should found next turn, as should the settler in the treaty city with Thoth. That'll get me up to eight cities. Phoenix is making a worker while waiting on Priesthood, Phiber Optik is finishing up its temple and will either go to another worker or Elder Council; I'll also probably start working a Priest here so that I can build my shrine eventually.

[Mardoc]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Ah, so that's why you wanted those two tiles in particular ! Well, a deal's a deal, I'll settle where you wanted me. I should have the pearls hooked up in 3-4 turns that I can trade for the gold just outside my borders :-).

I see that your war against Sir Yellow is prospering, too. Care to share any details?[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]

Well, the gold (which is now within my borders) is the former site of Bradeline's Well, the birthplace of Sciz's Giant so given the price I paid for it I consider it part of my natural territory. (not to mention the fact that it is a lot closer to my capital than to yours).

If you consider
a) the relative distance between that area and our respective capitals
b) the fact that allowing you to settle that area at all represents a concession on my part
c) the fact that I had a significantly larger military than you prior to turn 103
d) I was (and am) willing to go to war to claim those tiles
and
e) I swapped into OO this turn and then cast my World Spell

I think you will find that you got a pretty good deal wrt settling locations.

(I note that you didn't give away much when you agreed not to settle the area before t100. )

The war against Mr. Yellow has reached the mop up phase. He abandoned his capital this turn (apparently he and Nyktorion have had a falling out and he will be facing a two front war in a couple of turns) in order to try and protect his eastern cities from the Elfs.

I'd love to provide you with additional details but the Malakim Bureau of Internal Security (MBIS) has issued an information blackout on war news for the moment. I'm sure you understand the need for operational security in such matters.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Well, yes, I do still get gold out of the combined deal, in addition to a pretty good site (even if it's not perfect). I'm not complaining, precisely, just a tip of the hat to your negotiation skill.

I did divert the settler who was heading to the site to another location, actually; the T100 concession was real, even though I didn't manage to settle exactly on that date :-). Still, I find myself amazed that you can both expand so quickly and fight your war simultaneously.

About the only thing I'm concerned about, actually, is "I was (and am) willing to go to war to claim those tiles"; if you fail to get culture into your city by T110, there's a chance I may accidentally steal them; I need the culture for getting the second pearls and cove into my BFC, so I can't wait too long on it. Although I guess you just said that you did, in fact, expand your borders there this turn?

Do you mean to tell me that you got a spread of OO before I did? If so, I have an RNG to murder... Or did you research Message on your own?

And on the question of the MBIS - I suppose I'll just have to wait until sufficient time has passed that those files go into the public domain, and file a freedom of information act request for them (I'll read your thread when the game completes).[/COLOR]

What I find depressing about this is that he, quite likely, will manage to get OO into his cities faster than I can get it into mine, despite my significant head start and me being at peace the whole time.

I think, on the larger strategic picture, my goal at the moment needs to be survival and strengthening; I need to get to a point where he can't risk invading me and my GNP is growing, and hope to catch up eventually from there. Certainly I won't be planning an invasion for T140, not when his OO-based force is likely to be stronger than mine, and of course my cities are much more vulnerable than his to an OO attack.

[Mardoc]

[COLOR="Yellow"] Sorry if that last message came across as overly aggressive, I simply wanted to ensure that you "chose wisely" when deciding whether or not to relocate your settler. My borders popped at eot 103 so the gold is currently within my cultural borders.

No need to murder your RNG I teched MftD the old fashioned way. Cultists were my cheapest/easiest source of collateral damage against Mr Yellow's capital. As it turns out he emulated Sir Robin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgCq7oQ-dZE and Operation Fishface turned out to be unnecessary.

My "war" has consisted mainly of walking into cities without defenders and pillaging/choking Mr. Yellow so I was able to get away with a minimal investment of resources. A barb city in the desert also helped with the expansion as did *comment removed by the MBIS*.

Once the game is over I hope you find my spoiler thread an entertaining read. It's been fun to create.


I find myself in need of a source of Water mana. If possible I would like to borrow yours for 10 turns starting around t120. I can offer a loan of one of my Palace manas in exchange (Mind, Sun or Life). If you aren't interested in my palace mana and are interested in something else instead we can probably work out a deal (depending on what you want for the loan )[/COLOR]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Well, I realize I don't have much of an RB reputation yet, but I do want to build one of being true to my word. The ability to make a credible commitment seems quite valuable; certainly worth more than a single happiness resource. Plus, well, it makes the game more fun; I can just imagine how little fun it would be to play when no one's willing to give you the time of day.

You mean you won't entertain an offer of water mana for three cities? Darn....

I'll have to think about that for a bit, maybe talk it over with Dave. Mind mana doesn't attract, and I have managed to get Sun on my own, so the only one I'm considering is Life. Or, well, have you managed or project to get other manas? Earth from Kilmorph, say, or a planned Fire node[/COLOR]?

So, there's several things to think about here. First, what do I want from Thoth? I'm definitely inclined to trade with him, for the sake of good relations if nothing else. Life mana might be quite useful if I need to destroy some Malakim Drowns, say, or keep Hell terrain at bay after Hyborem's been summoned. Other possibilities include a non-compete on Saverous/Hemah, NAP extension, open borders...

Second, do I need to head straight for Mind Stapling to guarantee getting Saverous? Thoth is Spiritual, so he might value the ability to switch with little cost to something else and not build the heroes to begin with, or he might build them simply for denial. Or if I'm the next logical target, he might build them for temporary use.

Third - I really ought to start on generating a Great Prophet; he'd be worth quite a bit if both me and Thoth are running OO. I'm currently inclined to go for Phiber Optik as the logical place, or maybe Captain Crunch as soon as it finishes the scientist for Academy.

[Selrahc]

Mind mana doesn't attract

Any particular reason? I like mind mana myself.

[Mardoc]

Well, inspiration is only 2 beakers, probably only worth running if I have excess XP on my adepts. Charm Person, admittedly, could be useful, except that I've got Sun mana, and I'd rather Blind an opponent than charm them - not just take them out of the fight, but also hold them in place to be killed at leisure. Which only leaves Domination, on a non-Arcane, non-Charismatic leader; maybe if it didn't go away on failure, it would be worth having, but if I ever make it to Archmagi, I expect every XP to be precious on them.

I believe Mind mana also gives a research boon, which is handy if you have it permanently, but it wouldn't do much for just a short term loan.

Mostly it comes down to me being non-arcane non-charismatic, though; I don't expect to have a lot of mages, I don't expect to have excess promotions for making them useful when they're not killing stuff. I saw how tough it was for you to get an amount of mages worth building around in PBEM1, and you were charismatic there, and focused!

I honestly expect to just have a handful of mages in my empire, with the focus on the utility spells and perhaps collateral damage, but my real hitting power coming from Priests.

[Mardoc]

[COLOR="Yellow"]I agree on the value of keeping one's word in this sort of game. I'm having fun playing this game and intend to play more games of this sort so I am also looking to build a reputation for reliability.

OTOH, I also understand temptation.

[joking]
If your city maintenance is a problem I could accept 3 of your cities in exchange for you loaning me water mana. The maintenance would be tough on my economy but I think I could live with it. :neenernee
[/joking]

I will be developing a Fire node eventually, but if I can develop a Fire node I can also develop a Water node of my own.

Earth mana would work, but my GP pool is currently a mix of Gpriest/Gsage points so I don't have a firm eta on getting shrine mana. Based on past experience with the rng, if I count on getting a Great Sage I'll get a Great Prophet and vice versa. (now that my alignment has changed from Good to Neutral I fully expect to see the "buy a Great Prophet for 52g if you're Good" event to show up)

Murphy is a bastard.

My current tech projections have me teching Sailing around turn 110-112 which would enable reciprocal trade routes between us with an Open Borders agreement. I would be willing to Open Borders sooner (giving you the benefit of foreign trade routes) in exchange for Water mana at t120. I can also delay Sailing to increase the relative value of early Open Borders to you if you don't feel that an extra 50+ commerce is worth the loan.

Other options could include a loan (length to be determined) of incense (I have a second source within my cultural borders but it isn't hooked up yet as it lies outside the fat cross of my current cities) if you don't have some of your own[/COLOR].

Ok, Thoth definitely wants water mana; and given how much desert there is to reclaim, I don't blame him. It'll be a matter of debating how much I can get; right now I'm leaning toward some combination of a future Life mana loan and Open Borders right now.

[DaveV]

Nice updates. I'd like to say more, but I'm busy with RL at the moment.

Maybe you should come up with some settling agreement before loaning out the water mana? It would be bad if Thoth gobbled up all the desert territory between your two civs. I noticed the Remnants of Patria in the desert; that feature alone makes a great city. I think you have the upper hand in these negotiations, since he seems to want your water mana badly. Of course, he has the edge in military and could force concessions. But you seem to be doing well so far. A note on life mana: it could come in really handy if you ever have to face the Sheaim. Maybe you could get life *and* mind for water? Inspiration is not bad for adepts who will be standing around for ~40 turns waiting for XP.

I wouldn't place a high priority on Mind Stapling: Saverous is good but not great, and I'm not a fan of the "go nuts just when you need them most" feature of Lunatics and Asylums.