Uncommonly Good: A Story of Elves

[Azoth]

Oh... and I think we maybe found our stretch city site...



Mmmm. Remnants of Patria. Tasty.

You know, I still favour this site you proposed way back on Turn 5.
Consider the advantages:
1. It can be settled immediately, without gambling on the results of a ruins pop.
2. Settling on a plains hill will secure it against the nearby lizards and skeletons. (The extra hammer is an added bonus.)
3. Sure, it loses the clams, but with cows and 4 potential grassland farms, it'll have plenty of food in the early game. Late game, every tile but one (the mountain) can be bloomed. The clams can always be picked up with another city.
4. It will be instantly connected to the capital by river, for +2c; and with the Remnants providing happiness, it will provide decent commerce with all its pop working river tiles.
5. It effectively seals the entire north from Nicolae's scouts. Plant it early enough, and Nicholae might never find out about the Remnants at all!
6. Moving Orange Dot one tile East (picking up the banana but leaving the Pyre in the third ring) still makes for a nice dotmap, with only two tiles of overlap between each city. Better yet, this revised Red Dot will be culturally connected to the capital after its second expansion.

Bottom Line: I can't imagine choosing a backlines Fish spot over the Remnants for your second city (and likely holy city).

Edit: Some amount of crosspost with Man Behind the Mask.

[Gaspar]

Great, great stuff guys. I'll talk about it in the next post. First we have the always thrilling turn report!

Score increases: 9 for Grigori, 11 for Hippus (tech)

Really, nothing at all happened this turn. I did rename Sacrificial Lamb to a name more appropriate to our thread conventions...

[Man Behind the Mask]

Gaspar, I might have to question you pointing to this thread for entertainment value at the time when your turn report reads “I renamed a warrior”.

So, let’s talk about something else.

To me, you shouldn't turn this stuff off, fair or not, its a huge part of what makes FFH2, FFH2. If we think its fun to watch someone (not us) fight off a mistform, its also got to be ok when they pop CoL from a dungeon. I'm suspecting I'm in the minority here, but that's my feeling. If you want a more finely balanced game, the BTS forum in northwards.

My gut tells me we'll see less and less unique features, Acheron's, Orthuses, Lairs, Barrows, Ruins and Unique Features as time goes on as a community. I hope I'm wrong, though.

I don’t think it’s a spoiler to say that Bob has expressed similar dismay in his PBEM5 thread. I suppose it would be a nice, natural development if the BTS games are where people take things extremely seriously, and then FFH exists for a slightly lighter experience. The roleplays of PBEM1 might disappear, but it seems a shame to lose the flavour in exchange for attempting to level the playing field slightly.

Given that you can pick the Amurites and find yourself in a game with the Clan, Doviello, Hippus and Sheaim, or take the Lanun and find yourself in the centre of a flat land-only map, I don’t feel completely eliminating the risk/reward decision with lairs etc is the way to make things "fair".

[Ravus Sol]

On the hut/lair loss:
I will also miss them in the new game. They make for a lot of fun and nail biting situations. But Everything has to be tried once I guess. Just like one of the games was no settlers and one seems to be no grassland and this one was played with a map slapped together by a crazy first time mapmaker...

It's always fun to try new things... at least once... right?

-

And you do realise this is all just side talk for Gasper to get his nerves straight and ready to pop the dungeon up north! Go on! You could be lucky too!

[Gaspar]

Gaspar, I might have to question you pointing to this thread for entertainment value at the time when your turn report reads “I renamed a warrior”.

Hey...

The dotmapping discussion has been pretty interesting I think.

I don’t think it’s a spoiler to say that Bob has expressed similar dismay in his PBEM5 thread. I suppose it would be a nice, natural development if the BTS games are where people take things extremely seriously, and then FFH exists for a slightly lighter experience. The roleplays of PBEM1 might disappear, but it seems a shame to lose the flavour in exchange for attempting to level the playing field slightly.

Given that you can pick the Amurites and find yourself in a game with the Clan, Doviello, Hippus and Sheaim, or take the Lanun and find yourself in the centre of a flat land-only map, I don’t feel completely eliminating the risk/reward decision with lairs etc is the way to make things "fair".

Yeah, we're in total agreement here. FFH2 is a game of where a lot of randomness and brokenness balances out into fun. I wouldn't want to play a BTS game with huts on, but I wouldn't want to play FFH with them off.

On the hut/lair loss:
I will also miss them in the new game. They make for a lot of fun and nail biting situations. But Everything has to be tried once I guess. Just like one of the games was no settlers and one seems to be no grassland and this one was played with a map slapped together by a crazy first time mapmaker...

It's always fun to try new things... at least once... right?

And you do realise this is all just side talk for Gasper to get his nerves straight and ready to pop the dungeon up north! Go on! You could be lucky too!

I dunno. I didn't get the impression that most of the players had fun in IV nor do I get the impression they're having a ton of fun in VI (which by the way, also has no visible huts/lairs/unique features in any of the spoiler threads. So you're not really breaking new ground.) I don't mind you guys playing the game however you want, don't hear that wrongly. I just don't want it to become the standard.

[Mardoc]

I dunno. I didn't get the impression that most of the players had fun in IV nor do I get the impression they're having a ton of fun in VI (which by the way, also has no visible huts/lairs/unique features in any of the spoiler threads. So you're not really breaking new ground.) I don't mind you guys playing the game however you want, don't hear that wrongly. I just don't want it to become the standard.

Well, I can't speak for most of the players, but I'm enjoying VI. But, speaking of making a fun map, when are you going to have the time to look over the VIII one?

And then, back to the main event. After sleeping on it, I think I like the Pink Dot plan, actually. It's aggressive, true, making us much more likely to be at war with Nicolae at T100 (or more specifically, making it much more likely for him to want to be at war with us), but at the same time it's quick to plant, will help us in said war. And that gets us 3 cities in the west instead of 2; the clams/pigs seems to me to be quite a nice site as well. I acknowledge that the new Remnants site is poorer, with only Plains cows for food, but getting it started earlier ought to partially make up for that. And, frankly, I tend to discount defensive considerations when settling, but MBTM's got a strong point in the value of getting cities on hills and having an obvious focal point for any attacks on us.

The only question I have is whether it's worth shifting it 1NE from MBTM's spot, to get 6 workable tiles instead of 4 (discounting the fog). I think the river would mostly make up for the lost hill.

I also note that all our plans discount the plains/peaks to the north, but frankly I discount them too. It will eventually be worth settling filler cities there, but really we will need Ancient forests everywhere to make it worthwhile, so we might as well wait until after Priesthood before we claim the land.

[Man Behind the Mask]

Hey...

My own attempt at humour. Sorry

Back to the dotmapping, then. Mardoc’s earlier 1N for red is interesting, and 1NW could work too, but I’ll focus on the other alternative, as he has in his latest post. Azoth has presented a detailed case for moving the Remnants city nearer, as per my map which included pig/clams with one tile of overlap. That Remnants second city will be a production monster, providing a huge number of hammers even pre-bloom, with the one downside being comparatively slow growth towards its potential.

The difficult part is that it makes the “filler” city more unpleasant, so that becomes the talking point. You get to choose from: quite a bit of overlap; or, lots of wasted tiles; or making a beeline for City of a Thousand Slums (there is always a crazy FFH option in any plan ). For the filler, I can see an argument for any of the 9 tiles in a square with Gaspar’s orange at the top-left-hand corner, although Mardoc and Azoth have already pointed out that some are better than others. I’ll assume we pull the Remnants site back to the “I can haz” option and look at filler choices one at a time (numbered for easier reference).

1 – Orange Dot – now has six tiles of overlap with Remnants, and is thus probably a non starter. Also makes it a little difficult to claim banana in the jungle/peak zone, and is built on a non-jungle tile.
2 – 1E of orange – Azoth’s proposal – now has two tiles of overlap with both Remnants and the capital and does get the banana in the BFC. The two tiles with the capital are forested grassland, which is better from both a health and usefulness perspective than jungle. This is a strong option.
3 – 1N of yellow – no overlap with Remnants, but 4 tiles with the capital. Most of the BFC now jungle, but includes bananas. However, could be good if we want to share cottages.
4 – 1S of orange – a non-jungle tile. Overlap is 4 tiles with Remnants, but potentially leaves 3 outside any BFC (I’d use one for a fort in due course). Gets banana and puts Pyre second ring. 3 farmable tiles pre-jungle chop. I’d say this is preferable to orange, but is a bit more aggressive towards our neighbour.
5 – middle of square, 1SE of orange, and Mardoc’s suggestion – quite a bit still in the fog and this is settled on non-jungle. Only 1 tile overlap, but potentially two wasted. Probably more jungle than spot 4, and is flatland with two hills immediately to the south. Pyre in BFC and banana first ring. Four tiles from both other two cities for reinforcement. Difficult to weigh up against 4 without info on the fog, but seems fairly attractive.
6 – yellow dot – one tile overlap with capital and none with Remnants, three wasted tiles. Other plusses and minuses are set out in your original thoughts. Five tiles from Remnants, with a river-crossing slowing down movement.
7 – my pink dot – first site that is on a hill for defence. Very aggressively claims the resources and has only 2 tiles of overlap with Remnants site. Lots of jungle and blackness in the BFC, and 5 empty tiles to the north. Six pre-jungle-chop tiles to work is relatively low.
8 – on ivory – hill for defence and no need to camp the resource, but is another non-jungled placment. Both banana and Pyre first ring and no overlap with the other cities. However, same 5 empty tiles as pink, lots of fog and directly at our neighbour.
9 – on banana – probably not a good idea to eliminate the only visible food. Aggressive towards Sheaim and still mostly fog (jungle). Probably a bad idea, but it almost leaves enough room for another filler city to the north.

All of this discussion is based on a decision to make that Remnants site nearer, sooner and safer, but also a little worse in the end. It’s up to you how you actually want to balance that trade-off.

The only question I have is whether it's worth shifting it 1NE from MBTM's spot, to get 6 workable tiles instead of 4 (discounting the fog). I think the river would mostly make up for the lost hill.

I do disagree with Mardoc’s “workable” tile counts, so I’m not sure what we’re seeing differently? I make it six tiles for pink (number 7 above), and seven for 1NE (5).

I also note that all our plans discount the plains/peaks to the north, but frankly I discount them too. It will eventually be worth settling filler cities there, but really we will need Ancient forests everywhere to make it worthwhile, so we might as well wait until after Priesthood before we claim the land.

I’d say we are maybe waiting even later, for windmills, for that area to be attractive for a city. We should be able to culturally claim it with surrounding sites.

[darrelljs]

The dotmapping discussion has been pretty interesting I think.

+1. I'm still trying to figure out what I'd do. RoP being on desert is hard for me to deal with .

Darrell

[Gaspar]

Could Krill also be added to the tracker for my team? He'll be covering me for 2 weeks.

Other players- diplo with the lovely Balseraphs will be non-existant for the period in which i am away. You can try pleading with Krill but he tends to find begging amusing...

This is off-topic, and I'm going to weigh in again on the great dotmap debate shortly, but I saw this and two things occurred:

1. Isn't TT his teammate?
2. Could he possibly be more hyper-competitive?

That is all.

[Mardoc]

I'm going to weigh in again on the great dotmap debate shortly,

Don't you mean, the [SIZE="5"]FIRST [/SIZE]great dotmap debate? Unless you expect the north and east to be easier to decide...or the Sheaim lands to be easy...

Anyhow, I'll look forward to your take, Oh Great Rudderman of the Elves, Archer of Destiny, He Who Opines, but I'm going to be diving back into the PBEM 8 map for a while, so I won't have much input here in the short term. Gotta get Azoth and DaveV's input added while there's still time for the night shift and the Euros to weigh in one more time, hint hint .