Unfinished business - SG for improving at Civ 4 (sic)

[shallow_thought]

And to Brian's point about Fairies, in addition to some of the stories in the aforementioned Yeats collection, Susanna Clarke's books (a collection of short stories and the huge novel Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell) do an excellent job of characterizing the old-school Fairies Brian was talking about.  (Strange and Norrell is very long, and very, very English, and unlike some of the books we've referenced here, most have likely heard of it, but it's also very well written and uses its length and scope well.)

Totally off-topic for the game, but yes, I loved JS&MN, and the short stories (particularly the one about the Duke of Wellington). The BBC adaptation was pretty good also. The mix of folklore about "fairies" and "elves" is fascinating in its own right, with the Celtic, Nordic and Germanic traditions, let alone the layers that later writers added (Wagner and Tolkien are only two of the more "literary" ones).

[Zalson]

My vote would be for continued expansion. Let's get to 15 cities in the next 50 turns -- then go put the whoopass down on Boudica with Oromos.

So, if we're going in that direction, we definitely need courthouses to help us control costs. That and trade routes.

[haphazard1]

Fun discussion here, both on the game and other stuff. Faries, elves, spirits, the little folk, etc. do vary greatly in cultural interpretation -- from the Disney-cute Tinkerbell variant to the older "wise folks do not go anywhere near them" style of myth. Beautiful but strange and dangerous for mortals to interact with seems to be the concept, in most of the older source material.

Hanging Gardens without stone is a wonder I often skip, even though the GE points are tempting. The added cost of the aquaduct, well before you would usually need one, is a big stumbling block, but it does mean that sometimes the wonder remains available for a while since the AIs also usually defer the aquaduct. With an active war ongoing and some land still to claim, it would be a lot of hammers to divert from other needs.

If you plan to shift to offense against Boudica, Construction could prove very useful. If you just hope to get peace so you can focus on other goals, then it would be a lot less urgent.

[shallow_thought]

If you plan to shift to offense against Bouddica, Construction could prove very useful. If you just hope to get peace so you can focus on other goals, then it would be a lot less urgent.

For me, Con is more about the bridges. It lets us get away with fewer troops and saves some worker turns here and there. Agreed that it doesn't directly help our goals.

Brian has been nudging us to plan ahead for a while now, so here goes.

My suggested plan would be:

Short term:
- Defend against / peace with Boudicca
- CoL / Cal in some order (we want the tiles and Zalson is dead right that we need Courthouses to cope with expansion)
- Workers out of YM
- Chop 2-4 settlers out of YM, whipping if we would otherwise end up working unimproved tiles; try to leave a couple of forests (there are currently 6)
- Settle for food sources (including sheep near marble); get marble hooked up.
- Defenders / infra in other cities.

Medium term:
- Civil service, and Aesthetics -> Lit (order TBD)
- Generate a great person (almost certainly a scientist) for a GA, currently BaS is a bit ahead of YM in GPP.
- Generate a second great scientist for an academy during GA
- Build GLib in YM, using remaining forests and natural production, academy in YM, go Bureaucracy
- Go grab Monotheism so we can finish GA in OR (we don't really need HR - our happy cap is high and about to rise further)

GLib helps offset lack of pop in YM. YM is a bit meh going forward, but it quite centrally placed within the empire. Brocken lacks the production to build the both palace and any wonders. Bureau YM should have a good crack at slow-building any other wonders we want or can build marbles ones we don't for failgold.

[There is an alternative: academy at Brocken, skip Bureaucracy - it's expensive to run and YM is only so-so unless we can get academy and GLib there]

The details of getting this done across multiple turnsets with different players are, of course, interesting even without external events.

Longer term:
- Iron + horses => Guilds for knights; helpfully, Gunpowder is just off same path for Oromos
- Throw in engineering for the moves and trebs to help break down Boudicca's hill forts.
- Kill Boudicca
- See who else looks killable (Izzy?)

Even longer term:
- Consolidate new territory
- tech for cavs and cannon
- rule the world.

In this plan, construction appears sometime at the start of the "longer term" phase. If we come under serious military pressure we can look to bring it (and HBR) forwards.


Hopefully this doesn't clash too badly with Brian's plans for this turnset .

[haphazard1]

Lots of stuff for discussion in the planning -- I will (mostly) wait and see what everyone is thinking. But I can't resist a couple comments.

You mention shifting to OR, and later note the expense of Bureacracy. OR is just as expensive. But since you are Organized, neither will be quite as costly as they would normally be.

I don't understand the connection between the Great Library in YM and running Bureaucracy. An academy I can see, since it would add a percentage of the boosted commerce output of a bureaucratic capital. What is your thinking on how it relates to the Great Library?

[Brian Shanahan]

I've temporarily stopped the game at turn 128, mainly because in the interturn Boudica suicided a six unit stack against Xmas Present for no losses to us (in fact we weren't even hurt enough on any unit that they all fully healed with the Medic 3 chariot hanging south west of the city).

I dialled her up and she'll give us 250 gold for peace. I think we should take it, it'll fuel Code of Laws (I teched both Med and Priesthood for the known tech bonii) and most of another tech behind it. But with that big of a loss her striking power is probably gone, and we could possibly take Gergovia and Durnovaria (which she planted for the copper in the tundra). What do ye think, peace or take a chance?

[shallow_thought]

I've temporarily stopped the game at turn 128, mainly because in the interturn Boudica suicided a six unit stack against Xmas Present for no losses to us (in fact we weren't even hurt enough on any unit that they all fully healed with the Medic 3 chariot hanging south west of the city).

I dialled her up and she'll give us 250 gold for peace. I think we should take it, it'll fuel Code of Laws (I teched both Med and Priesthood for the known tech bonii) and most of another tech behind it. But with that big of a loss her striking power is probably gone, and we could possibly take Gergovia and Durnovaria (which she planted for the copper in the tundra). What do ye think, peace or take a chance?

AI tactics vs the luck of the Irish - nice    . That's all her gold (I assume), I don't think actually want either of those two cities. If we could really quickly raze the new iceball I'd be tempted, but we don't want her spending that gold in the meantime (for example on bribing Izzy into war). Good call on the pause, let's see what others say, but I agree that peace looks good.

Lots of stuff for discussion in the planning -- I will (mostly) wait and see what everyone is thinking. But I can't resist a couple comments.

You mention shifting to OR, and later note the expense of Bureacracy. OR is just as expensive. But since you are Organized, neither will be quite as costly as they would normally be.

I don't understand the connection between the Great Library in YM and running Bureaucracy. An academy I can see, since it would add a percentage of the boosted commerce output of a bureaucratic capital. What is your thinking on how it relates to the Great Library?

As you say, all up for discussion. Comments (almost) always good.

My thinking is as follows (it is entirely plausible that either my axioms or my logic are wrong - I'd hope the former, but no guarantees):
- YM is not great as a classical bureaucadacap; not enough food and too many hills, albeit partly counterbalanced by gold.
- Putting the GLib there boosts the beakers, which makes it more worthwhile for an Academy, which makes it more worthwhile going into Bureau.
Hope that makes sense. Going Bureau without an academy there - we'd have to think about the costs (I had forgotten that we're ORG )

Brocken will one day be a good commerce city, so the alternative is to put the Academy there, but I don't think we'll get either the cap move or GLib in there easily (or Oxford, if decide we want it, for that matter). In that case, I wouldn't want to blindly go Bureau just because that's the standard move, without us thinking first.

As for OR, I was assuming that we'd want it for infrastructure and maybe missionaries. But if we've already got forges etc. in our existing cities, and don't want the cost of spreading religion to new cities, then it may not be worthwhile either (but, again, ORG).

[Brian Shanahan]

I've temporarily stopped the game at turn 128, mainly because in the interturn Boudica suicided a six unit stack against Xmas Present for no losses to us (in fact we weren't even hurt enough on any unit that they all fully healed with the Medic 3 chariot hanging south west of the city).

I dialled her up and she'll give us 250 gold for peace. I think we should take it, it'll fuel Code of Laws (I teched both Med and Priesthood for the known tech bonii) and most of another tech behind it. But with that big of a loss her striking power is probably gone, and we could possibly take Gergovia and Durnovaria (which she planted for the copper in the tundra). What do ye think, peace or take a chance?

AI tactics vs the luck of the Irish - nice    . That's all her gold (I assume), I don't think actually want either of those two cities. If we could really quickly raze the new iceball I'd be tempted, but we don't want her spending that gold in the meantime (for example on bribing Izzy into war). Good call on the pause, let's see what others say, but I agree that peace looks good.

Lots of stuff for discussion in the planning -- I will (mostly) wait and see what everyone is thinking. But I can't resist a couple comments.

You mention shifting to OR, and later note the expense of Bureacracy. OR is just as expensive. But since you are Organized, neither will be quite as costly as they would normally be.

I don't understand the connection between the Great Library in YM and running Bureaucracy. An academy I can see, since it would add a percentage of the boosted commerce output of a bureaucratic capital. What is your thinking on how it relates to the Great Library?

As you say, all up for discussion. Comments (almost) always good.

My thinking is as follows (it is entirely plausible that either my axioms or my logic are wrong - I'd hope the former, but no guarantees):
- YM is not great as a classical bureaucadacap; not enough food and too many hills, albeit partly counterbalanced by gold.
- Putting the GLib there boosts the beakers, which makes it more worthwhile for an Academy, which makes it more worthwhile going into Bureau.
Hope that makes sense. Going Bureau without an academy there - we'd have to think about the costs (I had forgotten that we're ORG )

Brocken will one day be a good commerce city, so the alternative is to put the Academy there, but I don't think we'll get either the cap move or GLib in there easily (or Oxford, if decide we want it, for that matter). In that case, I wouldn't want to blindly go Bureau just because that's the standard move, without us thinking first.

As for OR, I was assuming that we'd want it for infrastructure and maybe missionaries. But if we've already got forges etc. in our existing cities, and don't want the cost of spreading religion to new cities, then it may not be worthwhile either (but, again, ORG).

Re the iceball, we can't quickly raze it because of the forests between it and Xmas Present. Currently she has a Gallic and Axe sitting out in the breeze which were from it and a chariot inside, so it'd be perfect otherwise.

Regarding OR to get CoL I back teched both Meditation and Preisthood, so we've access to Monasteries now, making OR not strictly necessary. It'd be a good idea to get at least one monestary of each religion up and running for future spreads (if we go Free Religion, more religions=more happy) later on.

If we want the GLib I'd suggest going for Literature ASAP, it'll probably fall fairly early if we don't prioritise it.

[haphazard1]

Nice result with your city defense. Six Celtic units for no losses definitely shifts the war success in your favor, and now peace is available if you decide to take it. Do you actually want to be fighting Boudica right now? If not you could always come back later at a time of your choosing, although of course that could have diplo consequences. And there is always the issue of what she would do in the mean time, as was mentioned.

Thanks for clarifying about the Great Library. I was a bit confused, since the wonder does not benefit directly fom bureacracy. Whether to go to the civic, and if so whether to move the capital, is a key decision. It is definitely not always the right move, particularly when you do not have an ideal commerce-heavy capital. But CS can still be a very good tech, for chain irrigation and macemen (need Machinery too, obviously) and opening up future paths. If you are already thinking knights then it may be less urgent, especially if you decide against bureaucracy. Since you have multiple rivers in your territory, I am not sure how much chain irrigation potential you have.

How are your cities doing on the religion front? You might need to focus on spread to make OR worth running, if the AIs have not spammed you with missionaries already.

[Brian Shanahan]

Nice result with your city defense. Six Celtic units for no losses definitely shifts the war success in your favor, and now peace is available if you decide to take it. Do you actually want to be fighting Boudica right now? If not you could always come back later at a time of your choosing, although of course that could have diplo consequences. And there is always the issue of what she would do in the mean time, as was mentioned.

Thanks for clarifying about the Great Library. I was a bit confused, since the wonder does not benefit directly fom bureacracy. Whether to go to the civic, and if so whether to move the capital, is a key decision. It is definitely not always the right move, particularly when you do not have an ideal commerce-heavy capital. But CS can still be a very good tech, for chain irrigation and macemen (need Machinery too, obviously) and opening up future paths. If you are already thinking knights then it may be less urgent, especially if you decide against bureaucracy. Since you have multiple rivers in your territory, I am not sure how much chain irrigation potential you have.

How are your cities doing on the religion front? You might need to focus on spread to make OR worth running, if the AIs have not spammed you with missionaries already.

All our cities bar Brocken (which is Jewish) and the two new ones (well one right now, but I'll settle no 2 shortly) have Hinduism and Yaqob, at least has two. The international religion situation has changed also but I'll leave that for the final report.

I take peace and finish out the set.