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(March 6th, 2013, 12:16)Gold Ergo Sum Wrote: If we sold two missionaries for 50g total, does that even net us one turn of full research? If so, might be worth it with the GAge coming.
No, we're at -130 or so gold per turn at max research right now.
Personally, I think the missionaries for archers scheme isn't that good, but at least it's a source of "free" MP units for Adventure One, and I doubt they're willing to part with gold. They have 8g in their coffer right now, and their tech pace and GNP isn't exactly great - the really scary thing is that they're NOT the rival worst in GNP. Their GNP from the last few turns have been 37,37,30,28,23,22,28,25.
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50 gold for a turn of research?! Oh my, no. Our costs are MUCH higher than that.  We lose 150 gold right now when we turn on research in full. Of course we also make 320 beakers from that before modifiers, so it does balance out.
Look, WPC is a poor and backwards team. There's pretty much nothing that they can give us that we would want. Rather than play hardball with them, I'd rather just gift them as many missionaries as they want. Their eight cities mean another eight gold/turn, forever, and even more than that once we start getting markets and such in the shrine city. I would be happy to build every missionary they could ever want and convert every single one of their cities for free. Missionaries are cheap and easy for us to build, and the shrine income is nothing short of amazing.
Why not give them a good deal and continue to tighten our stranglehold over our pseudo-vassal?
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What if we perhaps instead suggest that we trade our missionaries for them building their own missionaries to spread to their cities. For example, we could say offer that'd we'd gift them 6 missionaries if they agree to build the missionaries to spread Hinduism to their other two cities or something along those lines.
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I definitely think that giving away 2 for free is well worth it in my eyes.
A few hammers isn't going to damage our snowball and the goodwill we can gain from it (plus boost in shrine income) will be worth it once dogpile time perhaps comes around.
Not every deal we make needs to be balanced or in our favour. We give a bit more here and there and let our domestic power make those little losses in diplo insignificant.
Plus, its in our interests in terms of gold, espionage discounts and also strategically if we get them to spread our religion instead of the religion of one of our rivals.
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(March 6th, 2013, 12:46)Shoot the Moon Wrote: What if we perhaps instead suggest that we trade our missionaries for them building their own missionaries to spread to their cities. For example, we could say offer that'd we'd gift them 6 missionaries if they agree to build the missionaries to spread Hinduism to their other two cities or something along those lines.
agree with this and Sulla. spread our religion worldwide and we can get an obscene amount of shrine gold  .
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(March 6th, 2013, 12:31)Sullla Wrote: 50 gold for a turn of research?! Oh my, no. Our costs are MUCH higher than that. We lose 150 gold right now when we turn on research in full. Of course we also make 320 beakers from that before modifiers, so it does balance out.
Look, WPC is a poor and backwards team. There's pretty much nothing that they can give us that we would want. Rather than play hardball with them, I'd rather just gift them as many missionaries as they want. Their eight cities mean another eight gold/turn, forever, and even more than that once we start getting markets and such in the shrine city. I would be happy to build every missionary they could ever want and convert every single one of their cities for free. Missionaries are cheap and easy for us to build, and the shrine income is nothing short of amazing.
Why not give them a good deal and continue to tighten our stranglehold over our pseudo-vassal?
Agreed. This doesn't have to be about "equal" trade in pure game sense. If they feel like we've been gracious to them, it's a good thing. Further, there is the perception that spreading our religion benefits us already so if we ask for something more, that makes us seem greedy and cutthroat. The fact that they are offering archers (promoted at that) is just icing on the cake.
(March 6th, 2013, 12:46)Shoot the Moon Wrote: What if we perhaps instead suggest that we trade our missionaries for them building their own missionaries to spread to their cities. For example, we could say offer that'd we'd gift them 6 missionaries if they agree to build the missionaries to spread Hinduism to their other two cities or something along those lines.
I understand the sentiment but this seems overly complicated. If we only want to gift 6, that's fine. They'll want to spread it to all their cities anyways. No need to make a demand to that effect.
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If they're offering archers we should accept them. Let's just tell them we'll send some missionaries their way, and we'll be happy to accept archers in return, but that it's no big deal.
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(March 6th, 2013, 13:48)novice Wrote: If they're offering archers we should accept them. Let's just tell them we'll send some missionaries their way, and we'll be happy to accept archers in return, but that it's no big deal.
This sounds good to me as well (and perhaps better than what I suggested).
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Is sending missionaries solely for the sake of shrine gold really worth it? 40 hammers for 1 gpt is not a good ratio for investment. Consider a simple market instead. At 150 hammers, in a city with 30 commerce running 50% cash (about our average for the near future), it produces 3.75 gpt which is the same ratio as these missionaries. Any city with over 30 commerce (now or in the near future) should be building markets not missionaries.
Same goes for libraries, any city over 18 commerce should do that ahead of a missionary. And even courthouses, any city over 6 expenses should do a courthouse (120h/3g) over a foreign missionary (40h/1g), plus the EP has value too.
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If we send three missionaries and that makes them adopt Hindu in all cities each missionary is worth more like 3gpt. And if we get archers in return they only cost 16 hammers. So I think sending them 2 or 3 missionaries is okay, at least. Oh, and the 3gpt will get % modifiers added to them in our shrine city.
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