RB PBEM #2 - Justinian (SPOILERS!)

[Dreylin]

Well if Darrell is still trading with Krill, then so shall I:

Keith: Yo Dreylin, you around atm?

me: playing the turn, but probably no rush w/ Ruff at work

Keith: oh, ok. Was wanting to talk about tech trading tbh with you

me: Ah yes

Keith: You have, what, Drama, and Theo currently researched? And must have started a new tech by now

me: yep, that's right
& you still have HBR and are researching something else

Keith: yeah
researching machinery atm

me: aha
(is interested)

Keith: Well, I don't really know what you are teching right now tbh
which is kinda important. I know I want Theo at some point, but you probably won;t trade that away just yet if you are building the AP

me: I'd trade it away with a no-build on the AP (as I did with Darrell)

Keith: Fair enough.
Is your current research project under wraps then?

me: Nah
Paper

Keith: ah, cool, nice way to take advantag of the 1.4 multiplier

me: Then we can have the joys of negotiating for trading Maps as well as techs!!!
(and grab for UoS also)

Keith: Meh, UoS helps you more than anyone

me: exactly

Keith: Everyone will be looking at hte Lib Beeline

me: Quick question:

Keith: shoot

me: Have reached Darrell's Eastern border
do I go North or South of the promontory?

Keith: just keep heading west
to the north

me: North, cool

Keith: probably within 10 turns of contact
actually, closer to 5 now that I think about it
brb

me: np
I have a Scout with me, so once I get him to land it should be fairly quick

Keith: ah, ok
From Darrells' capital, about 2 turns to meet me with a scout by road

me: OK, can't see his Cap yet

Keith: shouldn;t be far

me: excellent
BTW, you missed a Wonder
GW just fell
to Yaz!? of all people

Keith: Ah, I don;t want hte Gspy points
so he can have it
So, just to pencil in my willingness to trade for you techs, and you are willing to trade fror HBR and machinery?
I'm probably going to look really foolish if you invade me with Cataphracts, after I basically researched them for you

me: yeah, I think that's fair
heh

Keith: just to work out when we should meet
can you see the rice just within Darrells' borders?
or can you only just see the island?

me: Nope, not yet
Just got level with Chicago on the island

Keith: ok, thanks for that

<Guess he didn't know that Darrell had put Chicago on that island>

me: can see a border edge to the SW

Keith: if you can drop your scout off on the mainsland next turn, do it
should speed up contact

me: It will be turn after next; he stepped out onto the Island

Keith: ah, ok
should meet in about 5 turns then, I have a unit that can make contact in the Darrells' capital

me: OK, sounds good
will you be willing to sign Open Borders, or not because of non-mutual Trade Routes?

Keith: depends on paper, world maps, and Yaz

me: (so I know whether to bother proposing it or not)
Ah yes, Yaz is a lynchpin in the centre, isn't he

Keith: yeah, yaz basically decides what goes and what doesn't
which is rather interesting

me: he seems to be holding out quite well considering

Keith: Yeah
Pretty sure SL isn;t doing anything to him though
and he did fail to take out Ruff

me: yeah
brb

Keith: np

me: So two ideas for trades:
Drama & Theo or Paper for Mach
Theo & Paper for Mach & HBR
those are the best equal-beaker approximations I could see
both Theo & Paper would come with one no-build clause which lowers their value

Keith: Temple economy...

me: <looks innocent>
As opposed to your Wonder economy

Keith: just wondering, but does UoS also apply to other civsthat run your religion, like AP does for hammers?

me: nope

Keith: mine probably works out at cheaper
ah cool, I thought so, but wasn't sure

me: & UoS changes w/State Religion
(which irritated in PBEM#1...)

Keith: Oh really? Car to remind me what happened there?
*care

me: Oh, mh revolted my religions

Keith: oh, just that
yeah
can see why that is annoying
lose all of hte beakers because you lack the infra

me: yeah, but when you have a tonne of Conf buildings @2bpt each and only 3 Buddists ... it hurts
exactly

Keith: Well, I'm happy to say that I am interested in the Theo+Paper trade, with those restrictions
I take it we both agree to no further brokering of the others techs though?

me: yep, that seems to be a given in all these deals

I think that I miss-read the tech cost of Paper when I was doing my checks; I'd thought it was 500b same as Theo rather than the 600b it actually is, so it ends up being a nominal 950b for 1100b (rather than 1000b). Still, Theo loses quite a bit of value once the religion and the AP are removed, and I did want the extra insurance on UoS that the discount gives me, so overall I'm not too unhappy.

I will have to start work on Hagia Sofia sometime soon so I don't lose out on the Engineer points ... maybe at Constantinople directly following the AP completion (can use the pre-chopped forests), or possibly at Adrianople - which also has good production.

[T-hawk]

I will have to start work on Hagia Sofia sometime soon so I don't lose out on the Engineer points

So you want it just for the Engineer points? Its effect isn't great; Hagia won't repay its hammer cost in worker labor on a low-land map like this (better to just put the hammers into workers instead.)

[Dreylin]

So you want it just for the Engineer points? Its effect isn't great; Hagia won't repay its hammer cost in worker labor on a low-land map like this (better to just put the hammers into workers instead.)

Well that had been my intent, but this seems to be another case of my thinking it was a Stone Wonder and it turning out not to be. I had been on the fence about it, but without the doubling it certainly won't be a worthwhile build.

[Dreylin]

SL really wants me to go after Krill:

Hi Dreylinian I,

How's life in the Byzantine lands? I was wondering if you would like to line up a trade for the next round of techs? I am heading towards Feudalism so was wondering what you were contemplating.

I'd be keen on trading for Machinery for example.

There is also a chance that I may be bulbing Philosophy shortly but that depends on what GP I get next. Krill has completed the Pyramids which is what I wanted a GE for. After that I think Optics is going to be an important tech to go for.

Krill's list of wonders is really stacking up now and he has closed borders with me trapping my work boat in his culture... Not the friendliest thing to do... I don't know how long it will take for it to be forced somewhere by a border pop - or where it will go...

Would you be interested in working you way to Guilds to show him what for? I can help you tech there if you like? I really think your cataphracts are going to be the best chance against him.

Any way - this is all a long way off - but worth considering.

All the best,
Sitting Bull of the Native Americans

Hey Sitting Bull,

Life in Byzantium is one long Buddhist party! 9-) Expansion is proceeding apace, research is progressing, and we believe that our explorers shall soon sight the elusive Krill!

As far as trading goes, obviously I have Theology and Drama already in-hand, and am currently working on Paper. Feudalism is certainly on my "need/want" list, so I'm sure we'll have no problem working out a trade.

I had been thinking in terms of Machinery, but after spending a while chatting with Darrell last night (on a number of issues), decided to stick with Paper. He already had an arrangement to get Machinery from Krill and then I think plans to go for Optics; so with that trade option out I also decided to pick up Machinery from Krill as well. I know that we've been talking about trying to isolate Krill technologically and I had that same conversation with Darrell last night.

I think that Darrell would be willing to take part in an anti-Krill alliance, but is nervous of Krill gaining allies if just he and I make a move against him. If you were willing to sign onto a joint trade embargo, research & invasion plan as well, then I think that would go a long way to bringing him onboard. I don't have much of a relationship with Ruff in this game, but maybe Darrell and youself would be able to bring him onboard as well?

The main issue with my making a move against Krill will be getting Astronomy early enough that my Cataphracts are still relevant verses the defensive troops Krill will have to hand. That probably means either an early (and expensive) jump for Astronomy straight after Optics, or a grab for Astronomy with Liberalism. Either route would need close cooperation to ensure that all the techs are available in a timely manner. So let's see if we can secure Darrell & Ruff's participation, and then we can look at sketching out a joint research and production effort....

Cheers,

Dreylinian I.

[Dreylin]

t80 - well this is odd; I open the save to see the following message from Ruff_Hi: "<smile>"

Wonder what that's all about!?


Thessalonica: Settler - Buddhist Missionary
Adrianople: Trireme - Trireme

Whip the Granary into Nicomedia.

Settler now 2t away from Red Dot (settling in 3t), and new Settler boards ship with Duck Season to head to the Western Isle.

I'll start to send most of my EPs towards Yaz at least until I meet Krill; may as well have his graphs since it seems like he's not going to be dying quite yet.

[Dreylin]

Well this is fascinating:

Darrell: Hey Dreylin, got a second?

me: sure

Darrell: hey after optics <-> paper do you want to trade engineering <-> guilds?
I am planning post optics and was thinking engineering
they are the same beaker costs

me: That would seem a decent trade

Darrell: okay.

me: but

Darrell: I forgot you got a 20% discount on paper...well done on that one :P

me: it's rather early to be signing up for that isn't it?

Darrell: yeah
my experience has been though I need to start lining these trades up in advance or I miss out
CS I started early and got basically 4 techs for it
Optics so far I have just you
I think I just waited too late
so I am going to shop engineering around a bit early

me: Not making a run for Lib then?

Darrell: I think at this point I will not be going after liberalism
not 100% set in stone mind you, but I dont know that in this game its worth the race

me: Hmmm

Darrell: so my plan is music -> optics -> engineering

me: so that'd be Krill & SL going for it then

Darrell: I think SL has the inside shot as a PHI leader

me: Have you thought more about our previous chat?

Darrell: Yeah I have
So I have one pretty big problem...I didn't want to disclose this around but I guess I need to tell you.
As part of getting Krill's copper I agreed not to join in a dobpile against him.
The best I can probably do to stop him is to stop trading with him

me: Wow

Darrell: I don't plan on trading any techs with him in at least the next 15 turns
I know
but if I didn't get his copper, yaz had even odds to raze washington
it was that tight

me: Apart from getting Mach from him

Darrell: yes, he owes me that for CS already

me: Wow

Darrell: then I am going to stop for at least the next 15 turns and re-evaluate

me: you traded that to him up-front?

Darrell: CS for Machinery?

me: yeah

Darrell: I think he was the last I got to do a deal for CS.
You were the first. Then I think it was SL, and then Krill. Ruff I just gave it to.

me: wow

Darrell: you said that
and I agree
I basically signed away a lot to ruff and Krill when yaz attacked me
I don't consider myself in contention to win this game because I am boxed in

me: like the game

Darrell: I'm capped at about 11 cities
err...this is between us
I don't know how common this knowledge is

me: so you can't declare on Krill at all!?

Darrell: He has to give me 13t warning before declaring on me, I cannot declare on him UNLESS he has previously declared onme
its a terrible situation to be in, and no one else knows it but you

me: 13t!?

Darrell: I have to watch his power and plan accordingly
also, I cnat give RoP for an invader

me: Would you be able to supply troops to a third party? ROP?
Ah

Darrell: right of passage
no
its pretty airtight
tech trading of cours is open, that's where I can help I guess

me: Hmmm

Darrell: I had a terrible dilema when you started talking to me, I didn't want to give this away but at the same tiem I didn't want to string you alaong

me: Yeah, thanks
But a tech conspiracy we could pull off

Darrell: yes, I am not bounded on tech trades

me: as long as we can get Ruff & SL involved

Darrell: Ruff is going to be busy with settlers and growth in the near future
but SL would be critical
I mean, ruff too
he can fund and tech
but just not to the level of PHI SL with an academy in his capital

me: Well SL keeps asking when I'm going to declare on Krill "your Cataphracts are the best chance we have against him"

Darrell: I thought guilds made sense for you for that reason

me: The problem is still Astonomy

Darrell: yes, thats the rub
I honestly think slow teching it is the best way
If we put SL on it and get ruff to fund him, for example
once I send out optics, we have all the pre-reqs

me: Ah, but the rub with that is Krill would be unopposed for Lib

Darrell: its faster than philo/education/liberalism

me: Well Philo & Edu can run parallel

Darrell: true
but while hes doing those techs what can he sling?
astronomy

me: Also, getting SL to Unis fast fuels the tech engine
Gunpowder

Darrell: if he tries going for something more expensive, we run philo/education in parallel and force him to take a tech

me: Nationalism

Darrell: gunpowder?

me: not ideal

Darrell: if he takes gunpowder or nationalism over astrongomy i will give you every tech I research for the rest of the game

me: heh, agreed

Darrell: the real worry is steel IMO

me: Do you have a decent map of Krill?
We could stop Steel easily

Darrell: exactly
while he's chasing steel your cataphracts and SL is building galleons

me: Or can't you trade it away?

Darrell: you put the cataphracts on his magellan powered galleons

me: yeah

Darrell: you have to have perfect trust in him though
since he's got to won the cataphracts for that to work
trebs from engineering for fast bombardment, cataphracts and galleons

me: Nah, would be quicker to gift me the Galleons
since I am between him and Krill

Darrell: then you don't get magellans but that's probably not that important
right
that's true

me: otherwise I have to ride Catas West to gift before they sail East

Darrell: ruff can make the trebs I guess
I cant make anything directly
but I can supply techs
hmm
astronomy is probably faster from me than SL now that I think about it
once yaz is dead at least

me: yeah, how's that going?

Darrell: hmm

me: I see he's got 3 cities now and had time to build a Wonder

Darrell: well I have my strike force ready but ruff needs some tiem
I have no idea what he's smoking
GG points or no GG points, that wonder is worth at most one more GG I bet
he does have stone tho

me: yeah
very cheap with that hooked up
Anyway, about your map?

Darrell: we can trade maps post paper

me: I bet he's tied you in to not trading that as well

Darrell: cna we get a NAP in place?
no, I can trade it
he didn't lock that down
I have him partially scouted
his land yes, his city locations no so much

me: well one can estimate one from the other mostly

Darrell: I think you can figure out most of them
he's got a ton of cities, mor ethan I thought he could support
so I believe he packed them in pretty tightly

me: more than you?

Darrell: oh yeah
he's got like 10
Im at 7 or 8 I think
you are at 8 right?
SL is only 5 and ruff is 3

me: soon

Darrell: I need more settlers

me: will settle 7 & 8 in next couple of turns

Darrell: I think I am 7, about to be 8 as well
right I settle 8 next turn I think
Back to techs, do you want to talk to SL and see what he thinks?

me: Yeah, I'm waiting to hear back from him about a couple of things

Darrell: I could as well I supposed...I was looking for him to see if he wanted Optics or Engineering but he's offline

me: Eng isn't great on this map tbh

Darrell: Hmm...:"we have our reasons"

me: large enough continent for Notre Dame?

Darrell: yeah I think so
Before I go into any more detail, can we sign a NAP?

me: do we need one?

Darrell: I've opened myself up probably more than I shoudl before getting one of those, but there we are
well...its nice to make it official

me: Like I can invade you!

Darrell: hmm
then what's the downside to signing a NAP :P
not talking game long here, something like 50 turns with a 10t cooldown?
but I'd like to tell you a few more of my plans to better explain my tech path
just want a nap before I do that
it also means those cataphracts cant be redirected my way if I help you get astro fast

me: sure

Darrell: sure as in 50t with a 10t cooldown?

me: So you're suggesting a flat 50t NAP?

Darrell: or sure as in you understand now why I am asking for one
50t with a 10t cool down

me: so 50t + 10t?

Darrell: so after 50t you can cancel it at any time

me: or max 50t with 10t cooldown within?

Darrell: once you cancel, you can DoW within 10t

me: so that's a 60t minimum

Darrell: no its min 50, then requires cancellation to initiate the cooldown
right
or 40t with a 10t cooldown I guess
if hte duration is an issue

me: which is nearly as many turns as we've already played

Darrell: I think past 50t I can protect myself atgainst cataphracts
we are on t82
so 40t with 10t cooldown puts us into the age of rifles
better this
40t or when I get rifles, whichever comes first
if you want to shirnk the duration
but still with the cool down
I doubt I'll have rifles in 40t actually

me: I have to go for a while ... time to make dinner

Darrell: okay...

me: I have no problem signing a NAP with you

Darrell: okay, so that's good. the reason I wanted the NAP is I am going for culture win

me: but I'd like to take a bit of time to think about the duration if that's OK

Darrell: sure that's fine
the intent is good neough
culture makes me very vulnerable of course

me: you're going to win in the next 50t!?

Darrell: but I need engineering first cause I think SL is also going cutlure based onour music conversation
and need ND for culture
no no
no chance

me: didn't think so

Darrell: however, I just want to make sure you won't bum rush me with cataphracts while I am preparing for this

me: Neither of you have enough Religions

Darrell: and I think after I can defend myself
no, we don't
its a long shot but what can I do?
I am capped at 11 cities

me: until Astro
anyway, must go

Darrell: sure...sorry to keep you so long

me: think about the possibilities of purchasing missionaries


Darrell: okay

Well that sucks and blows at the same time.

Darrell's out of the picture for Krill-bashing, and off on a culture run; SL'
s probably also on a culture run, and definitely wants to distract me by setting me on Krill.

So do I stick on the anti-Krill train, or do I switch sides and see what I can do in the other directiion...?

[Dreylin]

t81 - Wow.

Antioch: Moai - Lighthouse
Nicomedia: Granary - Forge

Chop finishes into AP, down to 3t.

Oooo, there's that Rice that Krill was talking about in Darrell's land; guess I'll be finding him soon.

[Dreylin]

Nicomedia: Granary - Forge

Idiot, that should have been a Buddhist Temple.

[Dreylin]

So here finally is the reply from SL:

Hey Dreylin,

Thanks for your reply. I get the impression however that Darrell wouldn't take part in an Anti Krill alliance and is in fact working quite closely with him. Krill sent his copper when he was under the cosh from yaz and I think that Darrell said shortly afterwards that he wouldn't consider attacking Krill in this game... I am very wary of disclosing any information to Darrell as I think it may end up in the wrong hands.

It appears to me that Krill and Darrell are not going to war and the only way that Krill will be able to expand is through you and then me.

It is for that reason along with the fact that we have worked well together so far that I would liek to work as closely as possible with you to get to Liberalism and Astronomy. Naturally it would be nice ot recruit a 3rd person to our ranks, the obvious choice being ruff. I have a decent relationship with him there and I'm sure he could be persuaded - although I realise you two must be sick of working together! ;-)

If you are game for this let me know and we can start hashing out a plan. I should be around for chat most of the day.

All the best,
Sitting Bull of the Native Americans

He's understandably got his reservations about Darrell working against Krill, though he doesn't know that it's both better and worse than he suspects.

The question that keeps coming back into my mind - and to which I've yet to find a satisfactory answer - is whether going to war with Krill is actually in my interests? Oh, SL & Darrell get everything they could ask for by pitting Krill and I against each other, but it seems like all I'm likely to get is (some) technological support against a superior foe.

I tend to believe that Krill is a better player than I am (witness my disasterous campaign against mh in RBPBEM#1), and he has already carved out a seemingly superior position so far in this game - wish I'd met him already so I could see his city list & graphs!

Going 1-on-1 with him would seem like a losing proposition with just Cataphracts as my "edge". One problem I can see now is that pre-Chemistry there is no way to remove city defenses without using Siege units ... which necessitates landing an assault force ... which then needs guarding from counter-attack ... which means a diversity of units rather than just a wall of one type which doesn't get defensive bonuses.

So what are the alternatives? Well I can see two right now:

1) secure Darrell, SL & Ruff into an anti-Krill tech alliance and go for a longer-term attack plan (maybe with Rifles & Frigates) that would give a clear advantage over his defensive units.

2) ally with Krill, use Cataphracts to conquer SL and then see where we go from there.

tbh, I'd like to have more knowledge of the lay of Krill's land (map, cities, graphs) before deciding on a course of action, but I don't know if I've got the time to wait. Ah well, I think I can afford to take a little while thinking about it some more.

[Dreylin]

t82 - remembering to switch Nicomedia to a Buddhist Temple.

SL shows up and wants to trade me a Wine for a Cow ... rather! If my second Wheat had been hooked up, I bet he'd be after that instead.

Ooooo, I have my first spontaneous Buddhism spread abroad - to Yaz's re-planted second city! And Music must have finished since there's a Great Artist born abroad.

Scout reaches the outskirts of Washington; Galley will circle around the nearby islands and then perhaps head back to circle along the southern coast of Yaz/Ruff-land.

Feeling a bit short of Workers at the moment; two down on the island, two up near Thessalonica (one about to head to the Western Island), and the fifth just finished work down by Antioch. I'll start another in Thessalonica next turn once the Missionary is complete, and possibly another the turn after in Adrianople after the second Trireme.