[59] Miguelito and Rusten move stacks to berimbau rythms

[Rusten]

Looks like writing will be too slow for Camun to immediately start on a library (Elkad border), but maybe we can put hammers into a wb while waiting for writing, and then whip it for overflow into a library. Could use something to scout the coast in that direction as well. Seems the best play to me.

edit: And after logging in I agree with the galley in capital too. Settler would've required 2 turns of setup which i a significant drawback, and we're getting more happiness shortly with the gems. You made the right decision I think.

[Rusten]

Missed your paragraph on wanting myst earlier. I think it's better to save those beakers and get earlier currency, but I don't feel strongly about it. The libraries are more costly, but they also take 5 turns less to generate the required culture. The deer city has 2 grassland cottages it could run up to size 4 and the cow city has enough natural production to get it done pretty quickly. I don't see the border pop lagging that far behind with a library (at least not in Camun). I really hate monuments (although not as much as Hitru ).

[Miguelito]

Re: the galley , I went to bed thinking that a worker might've been better. But the galley will be useful for sure. The new happy coming in was factored in yes.

I'll give Writing/Myst some more thought then. I guess the library would get built on 2 1pop whips; the first for an archer, then the building itself, with the remaining 35 hammers coming from the cow and a lumbermill. That does sound feasible.

Nobody loves monuments, besides the civforum.de crowd who enthusiastically build them in every city they found even before a granary. Might have to do with the barren maps they play. They don't even like Cre very much, probably because it makes it harder to justify those sweet monuments.

More seriously, I still think Charriu's charismatic made the monument play very interesting; but in PB54 we didn't get Cyrus and here we couldn't influence it. One more person who has to love monuments is Elkad in this game, with +200% and a happy face. If he built them early (and the researched Myst in the 50s or 60s) he'll get the 1000 years bonus on them, and probably on his libraries as well in some 20 turns .
Meaning we really want the third ring in Camunjerê. Maybe with the help of some GA artists? We should think a bit about GP strategy once we approach writing.

Edit: and the engineer builds the pyramids
In the unlikely case of that not working the realistic options I see are Taj (best return but very late), machinery bulb (speeds us up in the right direction, although commerce isn't really where we need a boost), TGL (great but requires a lot of tech detour), GA (would be a shame for an early engineer though).
Right now machinery sounds best to me.
We want to obsolete MoM fast, so that doesn't seem very good even if I like early calendar, and gardens don't seem worth it and I expect Mjmd to beeline hard for them anyways.

[Rusten]

Lazteuq accepted open borders so we've got some +3 routes now.
I took the liberty of switching our island city from grassland to coast. From my quick calculation it doesn't slow down regrowth to neither 3, 4 nor 5 (I'm assuming we whip LH next turn). Minor thing, the tiles are fairly equal in value, but I don't see the extra production doing much there so I assigned some commerce.
Do you really want the archer for defense? Because a work boat scouting the other direction would be useful. If you want to play it safe I'll get on board, but in terms of overall usefulness the work boat wins out and isn't just a random build.

[Rusten]

Not sure I like the idea of saving those central forests for the Taj. Those are riverside grassland tiles, they'd make for excellent cottages. They could also speed up the library in Camun.
Marinheiro has 3 forests, 3 hills, horse and copper -- I'd rather aim to build it there I think. We can put the Moai where you suggested it instead.

[Miguelito]

That's nice of Lazteuq, considering that he gets no benefit from it (I think?). I count 8 connected cities.

I had the impression that the extra food on the lighthouse was good for something, but it's totally possible that I was wrong. We whip that tile away next turn anyways, and then it's straight supercoast . Whipped the lighthouse.


Archer or workboat at Camunjerê? This is happening:


I don't know what exactly Elkad is trying to accomplish with so many axes, but I'm on my guard. Is power has shot up recently. But if he wants conflict, why would he give OB? Anyways, I don't think an extra archer hurts, also considering that we need quite a few more MPs in backline cities. I hear you on the WB, but it can come from Canoa Virou in the south just as well, after the lighthouse (a bit slower admittedly). Archer also has the advantage (?) of getting more OF faster. We might squeeze out Writing next turn after saving during this one, but more likely it's 2 more.
Btw it takes a sharp eye to notice that we just roaded the jungle hill in our borders (Elkad  also saw the wokers, so he should know):




Iron popped up. The first one I had called alread:

• Orange: Not that awesome, although Lewwyn may have hidden iron there. It is the stepping stone for the jungled corn/copper island in the east, which I kind of want, but it may also be just not worth it, moreover as it's contested with Mjmd.
  

please ignore my mistake with the galleys. The northern one was completely unnecessary. We'll pick up the highlighted worker next turn. Would you rather

1.  unload him on the southern tip, chop, move to iron, chop, mine.
   
2. Unload on iron, chop that, proceed to mine and  get the iron bonus earlier.
   

The other one was unexpected, but I will not complain:


This will surely be useful to get those econ buildings up.
Also good find identifying the best way to irriguate the corn at Bonfim.

Finally, on the lumbermills discussion:

I had Lavandeira planned as likely our best hammer city. 6 forests, stone, horse, 4 hills. Seems ahead of Marinheiro on all accounts. Do you want to develop it into a commerce heavy city? Lumbermills are also pretty good tiles. 2/2/1, 2/2/2 with machinery (on a river and flatland), and it's just 3 riverside cottages that we're not building that way. I'll assume we build Taj with 100% bonus, so we need 350 base hammers. 6 forests leave that at 170, which I think could feasibly come from some mines and a cascade (market?), for a 1 turn build?

It had escaped me a bit how hammer rich Marinheiro is though. Maybe we want HE there, if we want to build a lot of ships in this game? In which case I guess Moai should be back on the menu.

General question on development: There will always be somewhat hybrid cities, with riverless grassland, a few hills, and typically a good amount of coast. Would you in general cottage those grasslands, workshop/farm, or decide on a case by case basis? Canoa Virou, the deer city, or Maré Subiu are good examples. Of course for now workshops are shit.

To ensure that we're on the same page, I'll list what each city's perspective is, in my book:

• Corta Cana: Commerce evidently, although it can activate some hammers from 3 mines. Rest cottages.
  
• Paranauê: Cottage helper, whipping post, minor production center. Farm/(watermill*) grasslands that are not shared with the cap or Bonfim.
  
• Marinheiro Só: Coast & Hammers. It could help the cap with 2 dry cottages, should it? At a higher size yes I guess, although the coast is just that good...
  
• Igreja do Bonfim: Commerce supermonster, I even want to cottage that hill.
  
• A Lavandeira: See above. Lumbermills until Taj, to be replaced with other hammer stuff. The question is whether HE goes here, or to Marinheiro together with Taj, or somewhere else. If not HE I can see the Ironworks there long term. The only issue I see is that long term it gives away 7 of its tiles to Corta Cana / Bonfim.
  
• Lá vai Viola: very solid hammer city. Or a very decent NE site. What do you think? We don't have the typical multiple seafood site yet.
  
• Mora Iemanjá: I think I'll leave that grassland barren, infact. Work coast and whip a boat, occasionally. Do you agree that 1/2/5 fur is preferable over 2/0/4 coast, at least in general?
  
• Camunjerê: Commerce, to my own surprise. If Lavandeira is to be a hammer center it has to cede those tiles, so it will not be that stellar with just 5 flatland cottages. Otoh that means it has access to hammers via shared tiles, and we can consider cottaging 2 hills as well.
  
• Canoa Virou: I don't really know besides the cottage helping and working coast.
  
• Maré Dubiu: If Moai goes there it's a quite good hammer site. Of course the coast also brings a ton of commerce so that makes it a hybrid.
  

* I think we aren't planning for serfdom here, and without that WMs don't seem very good before late rennaissance

[Rusten]

Finally, on the lumbermills discussion:

I had Lavandeira planned as likely our best hammer city. 6 forests, stone, horse, 4 hills. Seems ahead of Marinheiro on all accounts. Do you want to develop it into a commerce heavy city? Lumbermills are also pretty good tiles. 2/2/1, 2/2/2 with machinery (on a river and flatland), and it's just 3 riverside cottages that we're not building that way. I'll assume we build Taj with 100% bonus, so we need 350 base hammers. 6 forests leave that at 170, which I think could feasibly come from some mines and a cascade (market?), for a 1 turn build?

It had escaped me a bit how hammer rich Marinheiro is though. Maybe we want HE there, if we want to build a lot of ships in this game? In which case I guess Moai should be back on the menu.

General question on development: There will always be somewhat hybrid cities, with riverless grassland, a few hills, and typically a good amount of coast. Would you in general cottage those grasslands, workshop/farm, or decide on a case by case basis? Canoa Virou, the deer city, or Maré Subiu are good examples. Of course for now workshops are shit.

To ensure that we're on the same page, I'll list what each city's perspective is, in my book:

• Corta Cana: Commerce evidently, although it can activate some hammers from 3 mines. Rest cottages.
  
• Paranauê: Cottage helper, whipping post, minor production center. Farm/(watermill*) grasslands that are not shared with the cap or Bonfim.
  
• Marinheiro Só: Coast & Hammers. It could help the cap with 2 dry cottages, should it? At a higher size yes I guess, although the coast is just that good...
  
• Igreja do Bonfim: Commerce supermonster, I even want to cottage that hill.
  
• A Lavandeira: See above. Lumbermills until Taj, to be replaced with other hammer stuff. The question is whether HE goes here, or to Marinheiro together with Taj, or somewhere else. If not HE I can see the Ironworks there long term. The only issue I see is that long term it gives away 7 of its tiles to Corta Cana / Bonfim.
  
• Lá vai Viola: very solid hammer city. Or a very decent NE site. What do you think? We don't have the typical multiple seafood site yet.
  
• Mora Iemanjá: I think I'll leave that grassland barren, infact. Work coast and whip a boat, occasionally. Do you agree that 1/2/5 fur is preferable over 2/0/4 coast, at least in general?
  
• Camunjerê: Commerce, to my own surprise. If Lavandeira is to be a hammer center it has to cede those tiles, so it will not be that stellar with just 5 flatland cottages. Otoh that means it has access to hammers via shared tiles, and we can consider cottaging 2 hills as well.
  
• Canoa Virou: I don't really know besides the cottage helping and working coast.
  
• Maré Dubiu: If Moai goes there it's a quite good hammer site. Of course the coast also brings a ton of commerce so that makes it a hybrid.
  

* I think we aren't planning for serfdom here, and without that WMs don't seem very good before late rennaissance

I think I would use Lavandeira as a filler city, and then turn it into our main hammer city for wonders in the late game if we're still relevant at that point. Until then I would give the river grassland to other cities. It's a little too low on food to be a great city before the renaissance anyway. Give Camun river cottages and let Lavandeira be pure hammers with farms+mines (but for now in a filler role, without HE).
Paranaue: I think this is a good (primary) specialist city. It can take 3 food resources without limiting other cities once they've grown sufficiently. Amusingly it also has zero, ZERO(!), independent tiles.
Marinheiro: HE+Moai I think. Or only HE. But chances are we won't have this unlocked for a long time so I wouldn't plan too much around it.
La Vai Viola: I think I'd be inclined to make this a hammer city, giving it the hills and copper, and making Mare a coast+specialists city. Another good contender for HE.
Mare Dubio: As mentioned, secondary specialist city when needed, but working a lot of juiced coast for the most part. Commerce+GPP. No whipping and then turn on 10+ specialists during golden age caste system for instance.
Camun: Make this a great city IMO and put Lavandeira in the background. It has good food surpus, good river tiles and even the coast is useful. Commerce.

So I think the only place I'd get lumbermills is Marinheiro.

On the general question: Case by case. But with our mega coast I don't think regular grassland cottages are that great. I'd only get that for the pure/super commerce cities. Working regular coast is going to get us to things like knights and the draft much quicker. So I guess farms would be my favoured improvement, but overall I'd say that there are more important things we can do with our workers.

[Miguelito]

I think I would use Lavandeira as a filler city, and then turn it into our main hammer city for wonders in the late game if we're still relevant at that point. Until then I would give the river grassland to other cities. It's a little too low on food to be a great city before the renaissance anyway. Give Camun river cottages and let Lavandeira be pure hammers with farms+mines (but for now in a filler role, without HE).
Paranaue: I think this is a good (primary) specialist city. It can take 3 food resources without limiting other cities once they've grown sufficiently. Amusingly it also has zero, ZERO(!), independent tiles.
Marinheiro: HE+Moai I think. Or only HE. But chances are we won't have this unlocked for a long time so I wouldn't plan too much around it.
La Vai Viola: I think I'd be inclined to make this a hammer city, giving it the hills and copper, and making Mare a coast+specialists city. Another good contender for HE.
Mare Dubio: As mentioned, secondary specialist city when needed, but working a lot of juiced coast for the most part. Commerce+GPP. No whipping and then turn on 10+ specialists during golden age caste system for instance.
Camun: Make this a great city IMO and put Lavandeira in the background. It has good food surpus, good river tiles and even the coast is useful. Commerce.

So I think the only place I'd get lumbermills is Marinheiro.

I was astonished by my inability to convince you of Lavandeira's greatness, and actually ran some numbers comparing the cities up to size 13 (where Lavandeira stalls):




Note that this gives the capital wheat to Marinheiro, which is true at best half of the time. Regardless, my bottom line is that I have to agree that Marinheiro is the better production city - it's more flexible, ie can regrow fast, with a similar hammer output that also kicks in sooner. Lavandeira is no HE material.
I still want to develop both as hammer centers, including the lumbermills. I really like the 1 turn Taj plan. I also think that we are very well set for commerce already and should rather emphasize production to convert tech into armies.

Camunjerê is still going to have very good commerce - 6 riverside cottages (I think cottaging that hill makes sense) plus 4 coast tiles should go a long way. It having access to the lumbermills is also useful.

Paranauê - yes. Some time ago I also floated the idea of having it be a spec city. I went back form that because the food resources are just 5 yield, and all shared. But I guess having it alternatebetween specs and food should work well. It will also have access to a lot of shared grass farms. NE here? We can also see if we find a good spot for that abroad. Wouldn'nt Globe Theater also be a good option, if we ever go for that?

Moai I still suspect goes better in Maré Subiu, because Marinheiro just has a number of very good land tiles that Maré lacks. There's time to decide yet.

Convinced on Viola for hammers. And yes in that case it's a prime HE candidate. On that note, do you think a coastal HE is very helpful?

Regarding the supercoast, we will enjoy it surely. But the map does not seem one where we can ignore astro forever, so we have to be able to live without it eventually. Colossus' obsolescence tech is very mean.

[Miguelito]

and it will only get better.

Lazteuq's shoreline is an identical mirror of ours, up to the resources:


5 copies of 5 player continents?
Do we want to go further east next, or north? I think east.

[Rusten]

Circumnavigate if possible. The bonus doesn't kick in until Optics (IIRC), but still important to get it out of the way early.