[SPOILERS] Lurkers Thread - Well someone has to do it

[Mardoc]

I sort of thought the current situation was obvious once Darrell posted his I have a secret after uber posted his cryptic messages, but I wonder if this is the wisest move for Darrell. Malakim has passed their peak, but the longer the game goes on the stronger the Elves get. I suppose geography dictated the 2v1 would be most effective against Ilios who's smack dab in the middle, but still think its an interesting choice.

Still like uber to win the game, but that well promoted Darrell army will be hard to stop. Looking forward to watching it play out.

Yeah - two people of the big three suddenly stop posting diplo updates...hmm, I wonder what's going on?

Honestly, I suspect Darrell's plan was to go for Ilios simply because Ilios has the better army at the moment. He's probably planning to just keep rolling - either straight at Uberfish or into the lands of the Lanun; I figure Darrell's goal is for the game to end within 20-30 turns before anyone can get something that can challenge Vamps. And Eidolons are a greater threat than Priests of Leaves, so that's the one to get help with.

[Ichabod]

Poor Ilios. He played a very good game and his civ was in a very good shape, but the dogpile is too powerful to resist. Maybe he should have kept a bigger army when it started to become clear that there was only three competitive powers in the game.

He surely had the power to build a very strong army quick, like in 5-10 turns. But when you get attacked by haste fueled, summoner stacks, you don't have 5-10 turns. Got to give a hats off to darreljs and Uberfish, though. They did a very good job about hiding their true intentions from Ilios and doing a sucessful surprise attack.

And I agree that vamps are too powerful. Not only they are very strong units (haste + regeneration + summon skeletons + summon spectres - without coming nowhere near the arcane line - + strenght 5 + able to use metals), but they also are in a way better techpath than the units they replace. Smelting -> Iron Working costs a lot of beakers and are pretty much dead ended techs in a serious game. You get forges and Iron, but it's not enough. On the other hand, feudalism requires Writing - Code of Laws - Trade. Three of the best economy techs in the game (libraries, trade routes and good civics).

[Gaspar]

Poor Ilios. He played a very good game and his civ was in a very good shape, but the dogpile is too powerful to resist. Maybe he should have kept a bigger army when it started to become clear that there was only three competitive powers in the game.

He surely had the power to build a very strong army quick, like in 5-10 turns. But when you get attacked by haste fueled, summoner stacks, you don't have 5-10 turns. Got to give a hats off to darreljs and Uberfish, though. They did a very good job about hiding their true intentions from Ilios and doing a sucessful surprise attack.

And I agree that vamps are too powerful. Not only they are very strong units (haste + regeneration + summon skeletons + summon spectres - without coming nowhere near the arcane line - + strenght 5 + able to use metals), but they also are in a way better techpath than the units they replace. Smelting -> Iron Working costs a lot of beakers and are pretty much dead ended techs in a serious game. You get forges and Iron, but it's not enough. On the other hand, feudalism requires Writing - Code of Laws - Trade. Three of the best economy techs in the game (libraries, trade routes and good civics).

Yeah, vamps are OP. The thing is, we've only ever seen them one other time in these games, in PBEM I, where two things were different. 1. Bob had the wrong leader and 2. pb was completely focused on their threat the whole time. I think darrell has played the vamps just the way they should be played - basically beeline to Governor's Manors and Vampires. Don't waste a lot of time on stuff like Religion until after you have your force in place, and then don't waste time, go crush someone right away.

[Selrahc]

Yeah, vamps are OP. The thing is, we've only ever seen them one other time in these games, in PBEM I, where two things were different. 1. Bob had the wrong leader and 2. pb was completely focused on their threat the whole time. I think darrell has played the vamps just the way they should be played - basically beeline to Governor's Manors and Vampires. Don't waste a lot of time on stuff like Religion until after you have your force in place, and then don't waste time, go crush someone right away.

More importantly than that.. Bob had no mana. He was stuck with S3 spectres. Even if he hadn't screwed up and left his vampires exposed, S3 spectres are not overly scary.

[Brian Shanahan]

More importantly than that.. Bob had no mana. He was stuck with S3 spectres. Even if he hadn't screwed up and left his vampires exposed, S3 spectres are not overly scary.

Problem 4 Bob was playing in SP mode, PB exploited this to the hilt.

[Ravus Sol]

This is why Vampires should be rushed BEFORE they get their units out into the field :neenernee

[Hesmyrr]

This is why Vampires should be rushed BEFORE they get their units out into the field :neenernee

But then that leads straight to the murky territory of prisoner's dilemma (unless I am wrong in thinking that rushing someone is generally detrimental).

[Thoth]

But then that leads straight to the murky territory of prisoner's dilemma (unless I am wrong in thinking that rushing someone is generally detrimental).

Not always. If you have a foe that will be unstoppable later, it makes sense to do what you can to cripple them early.

If you can manage your empire and your diplo so that you don't simply let someone else get stronger as a result of your early aggression....

[Azoth]

But then that leads straight to the murky territory of prisoner's dilemma (unless I am wrong in thinking that rushing someone is generally detrimental).

Not in this game! The Calabim were running a near farmer's gambit in the early game, defending many cities with just a single warrior. Both Amelia and Uberfish noticed and were in an excellent position to take advantage but chose not to, partly because they were occupied with the Ilios dogpile (good bit of diplomacy from Darrell there) and partly because they were more focused on building up their own empires. Vampires can be resisted once they arrive (Drowns and Stygian Guard help a lot) but it's hard work and you definitely want as many allies as possible. As others have said, it's not Vampires that are overpowered per se, but a lot of associated mechanics (Financial Aristo-grarian farms, Organized Governor Manors, Military State drafting, Sacrifice the Weak feasting, etc.)

[cesium]

Poor Ilios. He played a very good game and his civ was in a very good shape, but the dogpile is too powerful to resist. Maybe he should have kept a bigger army when it started to become clear that there was only three competitive powers in the game.

I don't entirely agree. He played his civ very well, but this is the third time there has been an a coalition vs Illos (or attempt to form such) in this game**, even though his relative position never did justify a dogpile. This suggests his diplo is a bit lacking, compared to uberfish and darrell which were very active. At the very least, if others don't like you, you must build a larger army...

** 1st: (failed) Mist and Sciz negotiations, 2nd: First Illos war, 3rd: Second (and current) Illos war.