[Spoilers] Commodore as Darius of the HRE

[Commodore]

Oh, yeah, I played a turn too. Screens are from EOT. Once I hit the "end turn" button, the shrine decided to finally start paying for itself. That chop you see is the next-to last to go into the Sistine.



Zamora, in particular, is helped by this as it needs the culture to pop those silks into borders. A monastery will boost the output to 9cpt, which should do the trick quite nicely. Need more improved tiles here, another four cottages and a farm should fill out the place.



Another gold-saving turn, which means depressing GNP. Crop Yield is up to "merely bad".



Okay, mechanics question again. Next turn I'd like to whip two or three cities, then fire the GA to swap to Bureau/Caste. This won't mess with anything, will it? I can take advantage of slavery and caste system on the same turn?

[Ceiliazul]

Yes, you can whip away pop on the same turn as revolution (provided there is no anarchy) ad then run caste system specialists before you end turn.

The only caveat is that you can't swap back for 5 turns.

[Commodore]

Forum needs a "contented sigh" smiley.



This is what my GNP should be like.



My brand new Bureau capital is responsible for about a fifth of that.



And it's going to get an academy halfway through the golden age, too.



Nemedia is putting one up there too, for future bulbing/GA/Academy purposes.



I could get used to this kind of economy. I hope hope hope MNG plays in time for another turn today.

[Commodore]

Welp, no second turn yesterday, I suppose I'm pretty spoiled. Did do a little screen-shooting of my rivals' land. Yuri's new hub city puts the kibosh on my ideal canal site, but I can't really deny that it's a good spot, and one he has an absolute right to.



Also sent a WC through MNG's lands to explore (returning the touristy favor). I would kill for this extra heartland. I'm not going to risk a bloody slog through his borders alone, but if collapse looks inevitable, I will attempt to pot-shot the Parthan peninsula (also settling on the uncultured plains hill on the south tip), and Rheims/Tours if it can be done.



Maybe it's me being jealous, but I can't help but think that Paris is a better capital than Aquilonia. I figured out why MNG is topping the manufacturing charts, at least. Five good hills and the food surplus to use 'em. Realistically, though, if I do have an opportunistic shot at the French heartland I'd attempt to capture Rheims and raze Paris, unless I am really confident about my chances of holding that bugger on the wrong side of the river.



No, Gaspar, not whining. You've given me all the map help I could ever hope for by making this a small toroid.

[Commodore]

The Hyborian Empire has completed Michelangelo's Chapel!



What's this sissy Sistine business? Go old school. The massive overflow of shields will go first into a temple and then into a monastery, in that order to avoid any losses. No more chops needed here, nope. My workers started a farm so I can stop stealing sheep from Koth.



Note that all three of these workers are un-lurker named! C'mon folks, this is the second-most-read thread here after The Legion's, ask me questions if anyone wants to see anything.

Development of the hub is proceeding nicely, although that ice-worker is going to be tied up for the next dozen turns making a canal fort.



In my other, hotter, hinterland the cities are actually finally growing decently. Khauran is in fishing-village mode, probably for the next while avoiding whips. A +3 surplus ain't much to write home about, so I'll ease back at least until the creature reaches ~size 11 and is stuck.



Khoraja, as always, needs more food but there are finally worker turns coming up to give it another couple farms. Rathaus, lighthouse, and library will help her contribute a little better, although a barracks/military shift might occur if wars of survival or opportunity loom.



On that subject, more scouting reveals a lot of the rest of MNG's map. I'll see about that other peninsular site and then it's back to the barn.



I'm no longer first in soldiers and very soon will be third. May they all have long, draining wars that leave me alone.



Four more wonderful turns of golden age to go.

[Commodore]

So. This is how the winds are blowing.

me: Hola, RL7

Ranamar: hey!
2:33 PM
me: I hope I didn't steal a wonder that you considered yours.

Ranamar: which one?

me: Meaning, apparently, a wonder.

Sistine.

I'm finally culturally safe. :P

Ranamar: ah cool

no, we did not consider that ours

me: Whoa.
2:34 PM
Ranamar: haha

me:
2:35 PM
Ranamar: that's a good plan
2:36 PM
me: Yeah. Is this Ranamar, Seven, or Lew by the way?

Or Noble too now?

Ranamar: seven

I think it's almost always me, the others are rarely on this account

me: Ah, okay.
2:37 PM
Ranamar: sorry I'm being chatted to by someone else atm, if you wait a sec I'll be more talkative

me: No problem.
2:38 PM
Ranamar: so we are gearing up to attack someone
2:39 PM
who it is will depend on people's defenses

me: Ah.

Note all my cats!

Ranamar: I know, you are well defended

me: In many points in my empire!

With landknechts on engineered roads!



Ranamar: yes
2:40 PM
me: Sigh, it's actually a pity.

Ranamar: we are not anywhere near technologically advanced enough to break all that

how so?

me: Well, I managed to fight my early war just before my UU came online.

Ranamar: heh
2:41 PM
me: Now I look to be pretty safe until after its obsolete.
2:42 PM
Ranamar: any interest in joining us against MNG?

me: Hrm

Well, I have the auto-cooldown from the spice demand.

Ranamar: so

me: That's...10 turns?

Ranamar: the only thing that enforces peace is signing a deal with a peace treaty while at war
2:43 PM
other deals like resource trades and OB can be cancelled by attacking

it's confusing because when playing single player, the AI can make demands

which work differently (they enforce peace too)

me: Ah, okay, I thought that was enforced too.

:P

Ranamar: I learned this because I read it in some other games, people made the same assumption
2:44 PM
kind of a strange way to make the game work, but there it is

anyway, the question is, are you interested?
2:45 PM
me: Yes, am interested.
2:46 PM
With the twin caveats of feeling secure on my GES border and ensuring it's not a long slog.

Ranamar: right

well, my impression is that GES would like to tech up a bit more, at least to rifling
2:47 PM
me: Oh! And perhaps a caravel or galleon?

Stupid Mr. Creative has stolen the ocean to my south

He can boat me but I can't touch him.

Ranamar: that's irritating

me: Yeah.
2:48 PM
It's my best non-capital city under his view, too.
2:49 PM
Ranamar: let me look at the map
2:50 PM
me: Oh! Which, next turn, would you be up for trading?

Ranamar: you have paper?

me: I will next turn
2:51 PM
I don't know an alphabet, but I know how to make paper. :P

Ranamar: hehe

me: It's only about five or six turns too late to have taken Lib from GES.

Ranamar: wow, that's not so much
2:52 PM
me: Yeah

I do take credit for the fact that he went for it.

At least I forced him not to sandbag.

Ranamar: yeah
2:53 PM
btw, do you know what happened to MNG's great merchant?

me: Settled, actually.

Ranamar: ah, cool

first it was en route, then he turned it around?
2:54 PM
me: He has a hungry high-commerce city near my border I suspect he used it in.

Ranamar: rheims?

me: WB tests showed not enough return I think.

Rheims has nice seafood.

Tours I think.
2:55 PM
Ranamar: ah

so how soon do you think you could be ready to attack?
2:56 PM
me: Hrm

Well, to avoid gutting myself economically I need to get PP first.

Actually, nationalism is pretty close and I have the happy to go drafting-nuts
2:57 PM
Ranamar: problem is, so will he

me: Good spread of Hindu, so theology is the preferred for exp.

Hrm

Ranamar: we're hoping to catch him quite under-prepared

me: I can war dec again turn...97 I think.
2:58 PM
If you go first and we see-saw his forces that might help.

He is considerably higher in power than GES, actually.
2:59 PM
Ranamar: ges can draft though (and soon muskets)

the tech matter much more than power

we can be ready to attack in the 97-100 range, I am not sure exactly when

me: True

I'll look over things next turn with an eye to fighting.
3:00 PM
Ranamar: cool

MNG actually doesn't have that many cities

me: Honestly, if you can fork his NW coast it might be best to go for it sooner.

He lacks engineering still.

Ranamar: if you pressure his south and we cut through the middle I think his ability to defend against any given point will be very poor

me: Right
3:01 PM
Hrm

Been discussing this with Yuri at all?

Ranamar: no

I'm not sure how friendly he is with MNG

me: I'm fairly certain if two declare at once he'll go into whip-or-die mode.
3:02 PM
Ranamar: yeah

in fact I think our attack alone would precipitate that, hence thinking a war ally can only be a good thing

me: It'd be wonderful to have a nice lush core land to split, but if we don't integrate it until GES has infantry/MG...
3:03 PM
Ranamar: he's not teching THAT fast
3:04 PM
plus there's naval superiority for him to worry about

me: I'm in a golden age and he's within 110 of me.

Ranamar: oh it's scary for sure

me: Yeah, though, the naval aspect is nice.

Ranamar: but there are a lot of techs between us and those units
3:05 PM
he beelined lib pretty hard

me: It's true

He's probably in backfill mode for a while now.
3:06 PM
Hum.

You have guilds yet?

Ranamar: yes

me: Knights mean a lot.

Hrm.

Ranamar: that's our army plan for MNG, seems like the best thing right now
3:07 PM
me: You're hammer-heavy and already have guilds, grendadiers your rifle solution?

Ranamar: thinking ahead, I guess so (and cannons)

me: Have any trebs? Cats will work, they just tend to be annoying.

Ranamar: no siege at all yet, the first wave is just blitzkrieg
3:08 PM
me: Man, bet you wish you were China right now.

Ranamar: byzantium actually

but that would be good too

the double movement is really nice though

me: Yeah

Ranamar: lets us take his capital on turn two assuming not too many defenders ready
3:09 PM
after that I think we'll need siege though

me: Hrm

Paris is 3 tiles from Orleans.
3:10 PM
Ranamar: 4

me: Well, counting Orleans' tile.

Ranamar: but we capture orleans, unload in the city, and walk 2 spaces

me: Ah, wise.

Hrm
3:11 PM
If I took Rheims, would you close borders and everything?

Ranamar: capturing two big cities really fast is so important against the whip or die mentality

hm?

oh

me: Rheims is the GLH city.
3:12 PM
Looking at the map his empire does split nicely along that river line.

Ranamar: well, I am reluctant to make an immediate and one-sided promise

me: Of, yeah, just an in-general thing.

Ranamar: but we're not going to suddenly turn cold after that
3:13 PM
me: I would hate to be boycotted for keeping a city the the GLH is all.

Ranamar: sure

me: He's got 4 nice places south of the central river.

Also one place I'd settle.
3:14 PM
*that would use our currently DMZ'd jungle arm.

Ranamar: so your attack path, you're thinking, would be by land from the middle?
3:15 PM
me: Middle and inner sea.

Ranamar: you have boats?

me: Which takes tours on our rim arm.

Yeah, galleys.

It's how I surprised him with overwhelming forces in the hub
3:16 PM
Ranamar: ah cool

me: Also currently where some of my mobile defenders are.

Let's me cover both fronts.

Ranamar: nice
3:19 PM
so do you think you can threaten two of his cities initially?

me: Hrm, one thought, I assume eventually you guys will be looking GES-ward to fight the top player.

Would you like a Hindu missionary so you can rely on a non-AP religion?
3:20 PM
Yeah, I can threaten Rheims and either Tours or Parthan

Ranamar: we're too invested in confu already

but I mean, being the ap religion isn't really a bad thing

me: Ah, bummer.

Yeah, the hammers are nice.

Ranamar: yeah
3:21 PM
not to mention if we have 1.5 blobs of cities we can probably be the incumbent

me: True

Ranamar: but if it's a problem, it's probably in a coastal city right?
3:22 PM
me: Heh

True, I forgot you guys added the Magellan's wonder too.



Ranamar: yeah, that was my top priority personally, it seemed important on this map
3:23 PM
lucky that GES and MNG just gave our scouts OB

me: Well, MNG didn't have a choice due to the GLH

Ranamar: I guess

heh
3:24 PM
me: I'd have gone Pyramids, personally.

Ranamar: oh, about the map trade

me: Spi/Cre with stone? Heck yes.

Ranamar: do you have map of MNG's southeast? that's pretty much all we're missing

yeah

me: Yep, I've just finished scouting him there.

Ranamar: ok
3:25 PM
can you agree not to trade maps with anyone else (at least for quite a while) if we swap?

I don't think you'll have to / want to anyway

me: I agreed to one with Yuri
3:26 PM
So I'll trade with them next turn and then wait another to trade with you guys.

Ranamar: ok

Hrm. I like the thought of owning that sweet, sweet land. I don't like the thought of wrecking my economy in total war while GES techs along his merry way. RL7 have gone all-in, and they will win this one. I need to compete and slow their gains. I need to ensure that I don't get wrecked myself by those fierce little galleons. I need to make a strong ally to kill GES with, and one I can out pace later. RL7...meets my needs. I just don't want to attack again right now.

[Commodore]

So, if RL7 is truly going after the softest target...um, I might be a little worried, actually.



Yeah. MNG is not their best target anymore. Neither of their neighbors are targets, naturally. Ah well, need to use some of that awesome GA production to slip in a round of Landsknechts. And also, well, it's time to put up or shut up with the MNG round 2 fight. Mr. Nice Guy is researching towards those musketeers at a breakneck pace I'm sure.



Sigh. Again, why aren't we trying for Mr. Renascence here?

[Ceiliazul]

Why is RL7 focused on a sea attack against a rival with a defensive unique unit in waiting... Egypt is softer by the power graph, and has a burned out old UU with little defensive value?

In any case, you're the farthest from Mali, so you don't have too much to worry about... one would think ;-)

[Commodore]

So, also played a turn, which in times of peace means worker micro and shifting tiles every which-way. Avignon was rechristened Brythunia and is about to start growing like a weed once the granary is chopped out. When to work the silver/furs is a hard choice here...obviously, both get worked at size 5 along with the deer to build things, but under normal circumstances, I'm not sure how I want to balance things. It's always annoying to work in snow but I might mine one of its hills to add a little more production for emergencies.



Let's talk about winning for a bit. Now normally these things are won by declaration of domination, what could be thought of as "human domination limit reached". To win this way it is apparently necessary to have at least an era-above tech advantage and a clear territorial majority, or at least the largest empire by a significant amount.

Now, despite the huge power surges, despite the territorial gains just made, I would say that GES is in a clear lead for this game. He recently grabbed liberalism, is now heading towards rifles at a breakneck pace, and his spiritual trait is only now coming into its own. His land is probably the best of all the teams, and with the AP/UoS combo his spiritual/fin will be leveraged to the max.

Team RL7 is trying to address their massive tech disadvantage by leveraging their current strengths; an excellent military position and total command of the waves. The sad thing is, they've gone in so far that it's an all-in. They must make huge gains against someone for good core lands to have a chance at matching GES's, and, to an only slightly lesser extent, my own tech advantages. And yet, at the same time, if they do capture a huge amount of someone's core they become target #1. It's a kick-off to the see-saw, and a definite move of desperation. Still, it could win big, and if they manage to blitz Paris in two turns it will be a strong victory. Thus, I must either ensure that MNG holds against them or that I get a reasonable share of the spoils.

So where am I now? My own limited-scope war against MNG didn't radically change the balance of power, although it did help my chances of winning and hurt MNG. My recent capture of the Sistine means that my best builder-shot at winning is with cultural. The disadvantages of cultural victory are obvious and major, with the whole thing being massively vulnerable to a boating alpha strike. The quick-speed 25k threshold is a lot easier to manage than the full 50k, but the minimum 3 religions/9+ cities is still a good rule of thumb. Ophir and Aquilonia are my two inland cities, and both are decently set up for producing culture, be it Aquilonia via commerce or Ophir post-Assembly Line with hammers. The only reason Ophir is viable at all is that it is the Hindu Holy City, able to have a huge ~30cpt with just Hindu buildings.

The third-city candidate must be, then, a coastal city with good food or commerce potential (thanks to the Sistine, artists are actually worthwhile specialists to run). My two "Z" cities are the candidates that work, both being at least slightly shielded in bays.

Zamora's development into a proper monster needs to happen now anyway, with the addition of another farm to irrigate the wheat, and then another farm on the ruins out east. Then, with a lighthouse providing decent tiles to grow on, every other available tile gets a cottage ASAP. The hammers here will be good due to all those plains and the ivory/mine...which will be big, because a lot of infrastructure is still incoming.



Zingara is even more of an infrastructural hole, although the food-heavy plans of making it a GP farm means that once everything is up and running it will max out fast. GP farming in general will buff its culture, with each specialist running a +2 cpt.



At the minimum every one of these places needs Hindu monastery/temple/cathedral ASAP. With enough room for thirteen cities as things stand now, that shouldn't be an issue. The two newer places will be building infra for other reasons anyway as they get up and running.

Trouble is, as much as I'd like to just builder away to a win that's not something that can be done against humans. I need to not only keep up in tech, but my military must remain strong and I'm really not playing to my strengths if I'm not also still expanding. Rathausai make conquest so much more profitable to me it's silly. The ideal outcome, I think, of all of this warfare looming would be for me to take MNG's "south blob" with four cities, plunk down one more in between the two blobs, and then help RL7/GES fight to a merry standstill. Yuri isn't that far away but thus far I haven't really sensed a killer edge from that team, I could see a three-way division of their lands coming up before the main showdown. I'd hate to do it, but it's always better to be on the team side than the victim. Other divisions could work too, but it's too far in the future to tell how it'll all fall out.

Basically, my mission if I chose to go this route is to as quietly as possible get all the pieces together and the infrastructure in place while still playing the game of thrones in the outer world. With careful enough NAPing/diplo I could then flip the max-culture switch while the others (probably RL7 and GES) fight it out/cannot break their treaties. All of this, of course, assumes that I in turn don't become the victim of a gang-up, the most dangerous one being a post-MNG world where GES and RL7 decide I'm an unfamiliar threat to be split, with perhaps Yuri joining in for cookies and loot. I know Sistine=suspicion of cultural victory attempt, but hopefully I've been complaining about my cultural pressure enough to at least cast reasonable doubt.

[Commodore]

Why is RL7 focused on a sea attack against a rival with a defensive unique unit in waiting... Egypt is softer by the power graph, and has a burned out old UU with little defensive value?

In any case, you're the farthest from Mali, so you don't have too much to worry about... one would think ;-)

This is absolutely, totally, the one million dollar question. One would think that Egypt would be the target, and maybe I'm not being trusted and so this is all part of a disinformation campaign. I smell a rat here. I really, truly, do. There is something odd going on, be it a successful bluff by GES, MNG somehow angering RL7, or, most worrisome, a dastardly conspiracy by the old-hands teams. I ain't jumping nowhere until this thing makes more sense somehow.