RB Pitboss #1 SPOILER - Hatshepsut / India

[regoarrarr]

Email sent to ZPV

Hey ZPV,

Shadyforce emailed me about a warrior that you have parked on a hill 6-8 tiles south of my 2nd city. Judging from the description, he appears to be talking about the site of your horse city. I'm sure you know where the warrior he's talking about is :-).

No big deal, just wanted to let you know that he has seen that unit. I don't know if he knows there are horses there (he didn't mention that in his email).

I am planning to found my city there about T75-76.

Have you seen any of dsp's or m_h's units around lately that could be directed my way?

Chat with Kalin

Dreylin: hi dan
me: hi
Dreylin: our warriors by krill share the same tile
me: yeah
Dreylin: I was thinking going S towards his horses
me: i also saw krill's other city
(one fo them)
north of hun
with my other warrior
Dreylin: hun?
me: the barb city
Dreylin: oh....
how far M
N
me: not very
Dreylin: that's right down our alley...
me: yeha
looked like he settled towards you
Dreylin: well, I have 2 vultures coming out next turn
me: cool
Dreylin: can you give me the coordinates of that city?
also is your warrior still around?
did you see what he had in the city?
me: i'm not at a civ computer right now
but i can tonight
and no i have only seen its borders at this point
Sent at 11:03 AM on Thursday
Dreylin: ok np
pls share
when you can
otherwise I think we are on the borders of his capital right now
me: will do
Dreylin: and I suspect that the city N of Hun
me: seems like it - looked like 3 borders
Dreylin: is his most recent city
me: he's at 4 cities, right?
Dreylin: founded only a few turns ago
yes
re: 4 cities
our vultures will arrive there in some 15 turns ...
maybe less but not much less
we'll see, maybe keep your warrior in the area just in case
me: ok
Dreylin: thanks
me: my 2 warriors in that direction will be exploring the areas so they shouldn't be far
Dreylin: what's your ETA for Maths btw?
me: 73
Dreylin: nice!
well things will be getting exciting soon
me: no doubt
Dreylin: I wonder if krill has metal...
there's no sign of that so far
me: with 4 cities you'd think he would
Dreylin: true
there's no copper N of hun af far as I can tell
anyway, need to go
good talking to you

[regoarrarr]

Some emails going around

Gentlemen,

I just wanted to inform you that our ETA for alphabet is T78 atm,
maybe T79. You'll probably have your techs by then, but in case you
don't we intend to front you all Alphabet so that trading can begin
asap.

I would like to ask you if you could give me some ETAs for your techs.

What was the final agreement with respect to the pre-reqs?

Kalin

My ETA for HBR is t70-71.

I don't believe there was a final agreement for pre-reqs. Perhaps regoarrarr would like to do something up for the new arrangement of Iron Working and Monarchy, or else forward his spreadsheet of techs owned when we get to Alphabet to the group?

Sam aka ZPV

I will have Math about T73 or so, so I am good to go.

As for the pre-reqs, the latest I had heard was that we were not going to go the "commune" route and just each make various trades on our own. Does anyone else remember otherwise?

And then a response back from ZPV

Yes, he is talking about the horse city. I could see his archer. I'm pretty sure he knows about the horses.

If you want, you can act outraged, and suggest a trade embargo against me once I found the city. This should divert his suspicion that we are working together. Don't, however, suggest a military campaign against me - we don't want him building units now, do we?

My settler is en route now - I expect to found the city in 6-7 turns.
As for dsplaisted and m_h, there aren't any convenient units to my knowledge. You will meet dsp once you have the Persian city, but I don't know where m_h lives.

If you want to meet dsp before then, then you can walk around, to the north of shadyforce, towards Imhotep's land. If you follow the south coast, you will walk around to where dsp lives (and I presume m_h does too)

dsp is not too happy with me, for my cancellation of a tech deal I set up when it looked like we were all trading for MC. He will be even less happy, however, when I cancel OB once I have enough alternate trade routes.

Sam aka ZPV.

And then Krill noticing my advancing warriors, emails Dreylin and I, in his typical over-aggressive fashion, with the subject "Choke? LOL"

Afternoon gentlemen,

I can see your warriors, moving into fairly offensive positions. Move them back or lose them, and I already have the units to kill them, in place and waiting.

Actually, on that note, move them in. I could do with the experience for my units.

Krill

[regoarrarr]

Interesting developments on the Krill diplo front

First - I emailed him

Hi Krill (and Memphus),

Good to hear from you. I find it unfortunate that our relationship seems to have deteriorated to the point where you would automatically assume that just because I have a warrior nearby that I am going for a choke.

But perhaps that is standard operating procedure in MP games? As I have said before, I have never played MP, so I realize that actions I might find innocuous might give you cause for alarm.

And I do understand that I now have 2 warriors nearby cities of yours, including one that is next to a worker of yours (I have not logged into the game since early this morning but I assume that you have either covered the worker or withdrawn it off the border, which is good). And I know that Dreylin has a unit somewhere in the area as well, and so maybe you are right to be alarmed or at the very least concerned. I will say that there are those players in the game that are urging me to take a more aggressive stance towards your nation than I might want to otherwise, if that makes sense?

I had been meaning to send an email to you so that we could figure out what to do about the situation but had not yet got a chance. Today is my first day back in the office since a week long vacation and so things are crazy.

But now you are IMing me so let's just hash things out there.

then a long chat

Krill: So, going to go for hte choke?
Sent at 1:42 PM on Thursday
me: hey
i was in the middle of writing to you
Krill: np
I can wait for the email if you want
me: yeah let me finish it off and then sen dit
Krill: or lack of an email, if you want to continue forward
me: and then we can chat
Krill: cool
me: gimme a few - in the middle of something
but hopefully within 10-15 mins
Sent at 1:51 PM on Thursday
me: okay
email sent
Krill: interestingly enough
Dreylin and you have a warrior on the same tile
me: yeah he just told me that
he moved there after i moved and ended turn this morning
Krill: and Dreylin has explored past me, and brought the warrior back
c'mon
Simle question
*simple
And I don;t need the answer
are you going to choke
or not
me: the question is
okay
Krill: if you move back, no harm
me: so, a few clarifying questions
and i really am not trying to be overly dense, or newbish, or rules-lawyery
(really!)
would you be happy if i moved anywhere outside your borders?
or are there particular spots that you would not want me to move
Krill: preferably to me, stay 1 tile away from the borders.
But I have nothing to offer for that
so I don;t expect you to follow it
me: well
i'm not in front of a map right now
so let me state what i believe the situation to be
i have a warrior near yoru capital (i think)
he's currently on your border?
Krill: on a forest hill tile
me: i think i can go 2 tiles SE following your borders
and then i will be blocked by water
is that right?
Krill: yeah
you going for circumnavigation, right?
me: i wondered if you would ask me about that
Krill: well
it's pretty obvious
me: and worried about my reply
if i say i am, will that make you more likely to kill my warriors so i don't get it?
Krill: Well I'm not going to get
but I can stop you getting it
so that is a bargaining chip
me: well, at least delay me / worsen my odds
Krill: well
you have 2 warriors
me: i do have 1 other unit that is in position to help out on that
that is not near you
Krill: I wonder what happened to the guys with scouts
me: yeah i know
Krill: so you know more than me on the cost/benefit side
I suppose I could offer you OB
me: yeah i was going to ask about that
but i aws just reminded that i am late for a 2:00 mtg
will you be around in 50 mins?
Krill: yup
on holiday
me: k
see you then
Krill: cya
Sent at 2:10 PM on Thursday
Krill: ok back now
sorry, was afk booking a table at the local pub, for a dinner tomorrow
Sent at 3:05 PM on Thursday
me: okay i'm back
Sent at 3:11 PM on Thursday
Krill: cool
hope they didn;t chastise you for being late
me: heh
no
it was worse
i was supposed to run the meeting
:-D
Krill: ouch
me: guess scheduling a meeting on the first day back from vacation is not a good idea
but it was okay - just 2 other people who are friends of mine
Krill: ah, cool
me: i have about 10-15 mins before i have to pick up my son (it is take your kid to work day today here)
Sent at 3:14 PM on Thursday
me: so we were talking about OBs
Krill: You have the advantage of me atm
currently quite toasted
but hey, whatever
You wanted OB, right?
I have no advantage from an OB
so basically Iwant paying
me: right - i seemed to remember that from the sancta game
that you were generally unwilling to sign obs just because
Krill: You be willing to trade a cheap tech, once you get Alpha (t80ish, according to the Lins) for OB?
Oh yeah
Just because is fine, it has diplomatic currency
but I don;t see us having alot to talk about in 50 turns
me: well, judging from past behavior, should i ask whether or not you've killed my warriors before i agree to OBs
Krill: Fiar enough
I did think about it
but no
both warriors are still alive
Eh
I seem to have a reputation for understanding the tactical situation
I'd be leting myself down if I didn't consider it
Basically I'm willing to give OB now
If you email me right now accepting that you will gift me Sailing, or masonry, or meditation, or polytheism
Well
I'll accept more expensive techs as well
I just doubt you'd accept that
me: i wouldn't say you're that far off
so here's a thought, in the interest of furthering peaceful actions
i worry that any response i make will lead you to think i have non-peaceful intentions
and cause you to kill my warriors
Krill: afk 3 minutes
me: that you will either take the wrong way
or it will get lost in translation
and you'll kill them before i can move them
ok
Sent at 3:22 PM on Thursday
Krill: back
Sorry dude
but I already know that you have non peaceful intentions
you shut the door in my face
you threw me out from the civilised world
and forced me to look elsewhere for tech trades
That is the most aggressive thing you can do in an FFA
me: again i think we are misunderstanding each other
Krill: Oh not really.
I think you misunderstand your own actions
me: that could very well be
i don't claim to be a civ expert
Krill: tbh
I think you think you are the closest to getting crcumnavigation
and OB from myself would virtually garuntee it to you
now what advatnage is circumnavigation?
+1 mp on al boats?
hook up that fish 1 turn sooner?
being able to threaten any enemy naval stack and keep your units in complete safety?
me: so what makes you think that i am the closest?
Krill: deflection
but I'll answer anyway
me: hold on - gotta go get my son - back in 5 mins (and i'm really not trying to deflect or be devious)
Krill: I know exactly how far apart your units are/
I know just how close everyone else has to be to get circum
so I know all the maths
and with MEmphus doing some calcs for me?
You really want to try and second guess me?
Sent at 3:30 PM on Thursday
me: no
just curious
Sent at 3:39 PM on Thursday
Krill: asnyother questions?
me: does my signing OB with you give you any safety?
(this is just a civ mechanics question)
like 10 turns peace?
brb
Krill: no, I get no advantage from OB
me: back
so i could sign OBs and then attack the next turn?
that doesn't seem right
Krill: yes
me: (not tha ti'm planning on doing htat)
Krill: that's how it goes
me: ok
Krill: eh
I don't hold the fact that you considered it against you
me: i didn't even really consider it
Krill: that would be hypocritical of me
me: i mean i did consider swiping your worker
but i am sure that you covered it
and i am (truly!) glad that you did
to remove the temptation
Krill: ah
me: i doubt that i would have done it
Krill: the fact that you considered it shows that you understand hte tctica; game
ffs
my typing is going to go downhill
me:
Krill: for that I cna only apologise
and drink more beer
me: so do you understand what i mean about not wanting to say something that will cause you to attack my warriors?
any thoughts on that?
Krill: Oh I understand
me: or is that a sword that you want to hold over me as a bargaining chip?
(and i can udnerstand if it is)
Krill: Well I know my troop positions
and I know where 2 or your warriors are
I know just how dangerous to me they are
nd I know what I have to do to kill them if I decide I should do after this chat
realistically the only way for you to be 100% sure that both your units will live to see the next turn is to agree to trade me sailing for OB
because what treaties do we have right now?
And what treaties are we likely to have in the next 2 turns?
me: well i have an email from you offering an NAP till T120 that has never been rescinded :-D
Krill: an offer is not an agreement
me: so i could just quick-like accept that
Krill: sure you could
but you don;t know the lay of the land between your warriors
you don;t know wether or not you can get circumnavigation without OB
that's a big gamble to take
especially when I know just how screwed you are if you don;t accept OB
me: i'm more worried about you killing one or both of my warriors
Krill: shrug
me:
Krill: the offer of NAP until t120 is still there
Sent at 3:50 PM on Thursday
me: so, assuming your offer to give one of the other techs you listed besides sailing (masonry, med or poly) is still in place, i accept, with the condition that you do not attack either of my warriors for 10 turns
Krill: Let's go one step further.
10 turn NAP
cancelable with 5 turns notice
I fully exect it to be cancelled in 5 turns
actually I'l rephrase that
I fully expect you to cancel it with 5 turns to go
because I won't
basically the problem with what you stated,
is that I could attack your unit with an archer, chariot, axe, spear, HA or sword
eh
stupid alcohol
damaging my synapses
me: it does tend to do that....

Krill: The way you phrased that means that you can still declare war
and try to choke me
and I'm not allowed to attack
me: true
Krill: which is an automatic no on my part
me: of course, now you are getting something out of it
whereas before when you were getting nothing you wanted a tech
now you are getting something
Krill: Then it's an automatic no
I am not going to agree to not attack your units for 10 turns
me: no i understand that
Krill: and still make it permissable according to that treaty for you to declare war and choke
me: oh i totally understand
i just meant that you were only willing to offer OB for a tech, because it didn't get you anything
but now if we have a mutual NAP, then you are getting something
(i won't be choking you for the duration of the NAP)
or are the OBs not included in the NAP
Krill: OK
I thin kthe problem is with the phrasing
I can agree to not attack either of your warriors for 10 turns
provided that you agree to not cancel the OB for 10 turns
along with the cheap tech thing
me: (which is essentially an NAP, right)
Krill: 6 and 2 3s
me: right
Krill: Well
I'd agree to not attack your warriors provided that a no more than those two warriors entered my land
and if you declared war treaty is void etc
oh
and declaring war while units are inside my borders teleports the warriors
me: right
i did know that
Krill: whic coutns as a move
me: ah interesting
i did not know that
Krill: so the double move rule would then aply to them
it gives me 9 hours to move and potect units
So
me: so it sounds like we're on teh same page as far as the offer on the table
let's call it a 10 turn nap with 5 turn cancellation
and obs
Krill: You're a diploguy
write the treaty
all 2-3 clauses of it
and email it
me: well, i'm still back to the payment
are you still wanting a cheap tech, now that you are getting something out of it?
i felt it made sense when you weren't getting any security out of it
but now you are
you're getting a 5 turn notice if i decide to choke you
Krill: not really
I expect you to cancel in 5 turns
me: i think you may be surprised but i grant that it is possible
Krill: simply to keep greater tactical options available to you
me: but that's still 10 turns that you have to prepare
Krill: eh
I am already prepared
I'm giving you 10 turns to get stuff in range
while I agree to not kill the current units
which I could do
me: so you still feel a cheap tech is fair?
Krill: as you are already scared of
cheap tech
me: yeah but i'm just a wimp
i'm easily scared :-D
Krill: eh
don't believe that for minute
cheap tech is basically fair
what is 90-150 beakers to you?
considering you are getting so many in a trade in less than 15 turns?
don't be stingy
me: heh
okay i accept for one of those 4 techs, or a tech of higher value
sailing masonry, med or poly
Krill: col
*cool
me: i have to go right now but i will send out an email this evening (my time)
i assume you will not kill my warriors in the meantime?
Krill: cool
yup
I won;t offer the OB, or accept, until I havethe email
but that shouldn't keep your warriors for long, only a few hours
Memphus also get copies of hte email
and should be off work in 3 hours easy

Basically I have agreed to a 10 turn NAP with Krill and will give him a cheap teach (Sailing / Masonry / Poly or Med). I felt I needed to do that to guarantee my circumnavigation, now that I am so close.

I am running out the door nwo but will write more on this tonight, including my emails to the Lins explaining this.

[Dantski]

It really seems like Krill is doing his best to keep his enemies as enemies and not try to bring them to his side. Or maybe he's being nicer to 1-2 of our allies.

I doubt he can kill both our warriors and if he did so that would only tighten his own noose further.


On an unrelated note, I saw ZPV did very well in the RB multi game the other day and I'm a little worried at how well we'd be able to deal with him if he turned on us. Do we have a NAP in place with him? If possible, could you list all our NAP's in the 1st post of this thread?

[regoarrarr]

Agreement with Krill

It is now T68. Krill and regoarrarr agree on a 10 turn NAP (until and including T78). This can be canceled any time from T73 on, with a 5 turn cooling down period. For example, if one of us gives notice on T75, the NAP will run out on T80 and attacks may commence on T81. Krill and regoarrarr will also sign open borders, which can be canceled in concert with the NAP. Cancel one, cancel both, with the same cooling periods.

Krill will not attempt to circumnavigate before T78, nor mention that regoarrarr might be close to circumnavigating to any other teams before T78 (or regoarrarr circumnavigates, whichever comes first)

In exchange, regoarrarr will give Krill one of the following 4 techs (Sailing, Meditation, Polytheism, Masonry), or a larger tech, to be decided by regoarrarr, as soon as tech trading between them is possible. Krill agrees to not trade for any of those 4 techs before T85.

Chat with one of the lins

Dreylin: hi dan
me: hi
first some news that you may find bad
i have signed a 10 turn NAP with krill
i am getting close to circumnavigating, and he could have stopped me
by killing my warriors
Sent at 8:28 PM on Thursday
me: but i think this will work out great as i will have the chance to scout out his lands and determine where the attacks should go
Dreylin: I see
that's not a bad idea
I am interested if he has metal
me: yes i will check that out
are you at all close to circumnavigating?
Dreylin: also what are the coordinates of his city N of Hun?
not very close to circum
me: ok
you know where hun is?
Dreylin: yes
me: 6 tiles N of lin
demon dirt is 8N, 1NW of hun
Dreylin: krill's horses are 4S2E from where Alex is right now
also despite this NAP
I should understand you remain committed to our alliance/pact
me: definitely
Sent at 8:33 PM on Thursday
Dreylin: good thank you
need to go
thanks for the info
me: ok
Dreylin: also pls check krill's demos
me: power is still the same
same as mine
Dreylin: no went up
me: well for what we think was hbr
i didn't see them up past that
Dreylin: ok
laters
me: bye

[regoarrarr]

It really seems like Krill is doing his best to keep his enemies as enemies and not try to bring them to his side. Or maybe he's being nicer to 1-2 of our allies.

I doubt he can kill both our warriors and if he did so that would only tighten his own noose further.


On an unrelated note, I saw ZPV did very well in the RB multi game the other day and I'm a little worried at how well we'd be able to deal with him if he turned on us. Do we have a NAP in place with him? If possible, could you list all our NAP's in the 1st post of this thread?

I have updated Post #3 with our current agreements, including NAPs.

To answer your immediate question, ZPV and I have a NAP through the 2nd round of trades at least, but I think we have laid the groundwork for good future relations.

And you're right that he probably couldn't or wouldn't have killed both the warriors, but circumnavigation will be HUGE in this game and I wanted to guarantee it. Plus, this gives me an excuse to not do the whole choke thing that I didn't really want to do anyways, and it will also come in handy to map out krill's lands for the future.

[regoarrarr]

And a little circumnav shot for the lurkers. I believe that I will circumnavigate next turn (T69)



My 2 warriors:

* Alex is 1SW of the silk. He moved SE to his current position on T68.
* Bob is 1SW of Demon Dirt. He moved NW to his current position on T68.

I *believe* that if Alex moves SE next turn, that he will reveal tiles in the 2 rows to the east of his position (over water it looks like). Given that I have already revealed what looks like the column 3E of his T69 position (the water tile that has Krill's borders in the extreme south of the pic), that should do it.

It may be better to move to the hill tile, I'm not sure - I know I can see over water to the SE, and the tile E-SE of Alex looks like forest, though it's likely that there will be flatlands to the NE or E of the hill.

[regoarrarr]

T69 played - the galley is produced and on the move.

My exploring warriors have (almost) met and have circumnavigated, as far as I can tell.

So barring anything crazy (toroidality?) I am hoping to get the circumnav message at the rollover of T70 which will happen whenever sunrise plays his turns.

[regoarrarr]

STATE OF THE INDIAN EMPIRE, TURN 70

First of all, the all-important news!


I don't know if anyone else was close but I'm glad that I got it. As you can also see (though I'm sure you already know) the Great Wall went down this past turn (T70), to the Industrious m_h / kodii I believe.

An overview of the existing empire


Cincinnati just 2-pop whipped a settler this turn, which will head to the far south to found Fairfield. It will then build a barracks, aided by the chop of Amy the worker, timed to come in with Math, in 3 turns.

Green Twp put a turn into a barracks, but I interrupted that to slot in an axe, because of the barb warrior, circled in girly pink. I had to divert the spear that was going to be garrison for Fairfield to take care of that, in case it moved to pillage the road. We're also getting very close to the 33 city limit where barbs will enter borders (I think).

Whitewater just grew to size 2 this turn and thanks to granary and double seafood has only 2 turns to grow to size 3, where it will work the just-in-time mine by Carolyn the worker. It will grow to size 4 and get 29 hammers in the box on T76, at which point it will double whip the lighthouse for max overflow into Moai.

The ISS Adams is on the fish tile, heading to pick up my Hindu missionary, circled in green. My speedy ships will cut 1 turn off the delivery time, which is now T73 for the missionary to make it to the capital.

The near south


ZPV should have his city marked on the indicated tile within a few turns (settler is already on route as of a few turns ago IIRC). Fairfield will be founded on T75 thanks to Brooke the worker who is roading that way.

Here is the northeast.


The river that could serve as a border between me and Imhotep is up there, emptying into the fish. We'll see how that shakes out. It seems like we're both focusing in the other direction for now. Charlie the warrior (south of the 3 tile lake) is heading northwest to see what (who?) is up there.

The northwest



I have an axe who is just checking out any resources that are in the few tiles of fog south of the wheat. My thought is that my border city will be on the plains hill tile 2W of the wheat, which is approximately equidistant between myself and sunrise.

Here is the near east.



My next (5th) city will probably go here, either on the marked tile or possibly 1W. With so few resources (especially food ones!) available, I may split up the clams and cows, though one of my thoughts also was that I could always overlap slightly.

Tech-wise, Math in 3, then Masonry (in 2 or 3) followed by saving gold for Currency (don't want to start researching it till I get the other optional pre-req of Alpha). Masonry is so I can start on an aqueduct in GT to go with the HG. Broker said he had stone that I might be able to get, which would be nice. With stone, HG is only 10 turns @ GT. Need to get a missionary down here as well, which I can do out of the capital.

Diplomatically - still haven't found dsp or m-h. The cabal of 5 is going well for now, and ZPV is still planning a rush on shady in the T90ish time-frame.

So there you have it!

[regoarrarr]

And email to sunrise - we are not sure if his missionary can board my galley

Hey sunrise,

Glad to see you got your turns in. I see your missionary 1S of the corn. The ISS Adams is on its way.

As you may have seen, I got the circumnavigation bonus last turn, so I'll be there next turn.

I am not sure how to WB a test to see if your missionary can border my galley or not. I don't know how to test it so that I can control 2 different civs in a SP game. Do you? Otherwise we're going to have to think of something else as your culture does not extend into any of Brookville Lake's tiles, at least as far as I can see.

Also, as you may have noticed / heard / seen, I signed OB and a 10 turn NAP with Krill on T68. This was because I was very close to circumnavigating (1 turn!) and his borders were in the way and he was threatening to kill one or both of my warriors. I do want to say that I remain committed to our alliance and in fact will be using these 10 turns to map and scout out his lands. If the group wants me to remain having OBs for this purpose, we can talk about that too. If not, my plan is to cancel the NAP when I can, on T73 (runs out on T78 - 5 turns later)

Let me know what you can find out about the WB test