RBP3 - [SPOILERS] - Team DIM (Mehmed of HRE)

[meatbalz]

i ended turn without moving cortes. if a wolf comes out of the fog and hits him i won't be impressed

worker due next turn. let's make sure he irrigates the tile 1 N of the capital, and then immediately cancels action so he's ready to move to the sheep the following turn when AH comes in.

[Ilios]

New turn has rolled over.

Dazed, if you log into the game, could you take a screenshot from the demographics screen? I'll ask for it if the turn ends before I get home and get a chance to log in.

Thanks!

By the way the Ottomans finished a warrior last turn.

Edit: can you send an ingame screenshot as well, for the point increases? Thanks again!

[Ilios]

Looks like the in-game chat had it's effect:

Honorable triumvirate of DIM

After re-reading our previous message it appears that we have unfortunately conveyed the wrong impression to you. We apologise and blame Conan for this misunderstanding.

We are interested in friendly relations with your team. We would be willing to sign a NAP with you with the following conditions:
NAP until at least T50
A 10 turn cancellation notice (i.e. if canceled on T50 neither side can attack until T60)

You mentioned that you wanted a border agreement when signing a NAP. We can also agree to that, but unfortunately do not have complete knowledge of the area between us. A possible solution is to trade screenshots, which we can do in this game. What is your opinion on trading screenshots and would you be willing to do so?

Also, would you like to organise some future tech trades when someone reaches alphabet? It would be mutually beneficial to do so. Given a preference we would like to research either alphabet or math.

Enough talking

Sounds a lot better than last message doesn't it?

[meatbalz]

whoa that's quite a reversal

well, that is MUCH more like it. looks like our diplomacy has struck a chord after all. both ilios and i were able to catch A4 members in-game and chat to them, which i think reinforced in their mind our merits as partners.

message contents
1) an apology for the curt tone
2) NAP proposal without restriction for 30 turns
3) they know (or think they know) where our capital is
4) sounding out our willingness to trade screenshots of the area
5) free info re: their preferred tech path
6) a willingness to work with us in the medium-term with a proposal to trade alpha or maths, both of which would come WAY after the T50 NAP expiry

who'd have thunk? i'm not saying they've gone all-in with us but suggesting a NAP+a tech trade+screenshot exchanges on T21 is PRETTY friendly. i have some thoughts but would like to hear from you guys first.

[meatbalz]

guys, was doing some thinking about tech, not directly related to A4's proposal. we need to decide a tech path. let's assume we want to beeline CoL.

if that's the case we have 2 choices
1) oracle
2) no oracle

the difference being, if we want any chance at oracle, any chance at all, TW+pottery have to wait. instead of teching by working cottages we reduce costs by chopping rathauses. we lose ~15 turns of cottage growth in exchange for early rathauses and a religion.

it's an all-or-nothing plan. if we go for CoL and lose the oracle we not only lose the wonder + the religion but also possibly get locked out of tech trades (presumably we'd offer CoL). i don't think it's worth the risk, but for what it's worth our path would look like this:

T46 start medi
T56 start priesthood
T63 start writing, start oracle
T75 writing done, oracle done

even that's optimistic since it doesn't account for maintenance costs.


the alternative is no oracle, in which case the path looks more or less like this (speeded up by cottages, again no maintenance costs factored in so this is optimistic)

T46 start TW
T55 start pottery
T63 start medi
T71 start priesthood
T77 start writing
T86 start CoL
T116??? get CoL (630 beakers )

the problem with this is from the tech trading perspective. even if the other civs involved in the trade get all the starting techs, the guys targeting alpha will get it 20+ turns before we get CoL

of course if we think oracle lasts until T86, it's a good idea to start building it T77. i seriously doubt this will be the case, particularly since meditation has already fallen.

thoughts?

[Ilios]

The HuPac of Mali team will almost 100% certain go for it and they're Industrious. So to be honest, I don't think we have a chance at all at the Oracle/CoL slingshot. I think, with massive chopping, we'd have a shot at completing it, but there's no way we'd have researched Writing by then.

I have some ideas on what to research next, but I'll post those together with my thoughts on A4's last message.

[Ilios]

Ok here's my thoughts so far on the A4 message

Screenshots

I think we could send them a screenshot of the area to our west. But we'd first need to know the exact location of Aquilonia. Could we have them direct Hernan to their capital so we have an idea of the distances involved.

NAP

I'm really not into early NAP's, but as this our first contact, I am willing to consider the NAP they propose. We could maybe sign it the moment we have exchanged screenshots and have an idea of the future border. If we could leave our entire western border lightly defended, it would allow us to strengthen other parts of the empire.

Tech Trading

I’m actually happy their preference is Alphabet/Maths, because I was going to propose to go for the bottom half of the tech tree. After researching Pottery, I’d like to go for Poly/Mono and then finally Monarchy. You guys have probably noticed the lack of happy resources and I think Monarchy will be very powerful in the short and long run.

With some luck we can land a religion, but that’s not a must. A missionary would be another powerful bargaining chip though. Then we can revolt to Organized Religion + Hereditary Rule (at a discount, because we’re organized!)

I’d need to check the ingame beaker costs before we can see which trades we can do. I was thinking we could trade Writing and Alphabet for Monarchy (with Writing to be given as soon as it is discovered, we could flip them a cheap religious tech in exchange). We'll need to ask them if they plan on beelining. I'll check tonight how long the researching would take.

[meatbalz]

Ok here's my thoughts so far on the A4 message

Screenshots

I think we could send them a screenshot of the area to our west. But we'd first need to know the exact location of Aquilonia. Could we have them direct Hernan to their capital so we have an idea of the distances involved.

NAP

I'm really not into early NAP's, but as this our first contact, I am willing to consider the NAP they propose. We could maybe sign it the moment we have exchanged screenshots and have an idea of the future border. If we could leave our entire western border lightly defended, it would allow us to strengthen other parts of the empire.

Tech Trading

I’m actually happy their preference is Alphabet/Maths, because I was going to propose to go for the bottom half of the tech tree. After researching Pottery, I’d like to go for Poly/Mono and then finally Monarchy. You guys have probably noticed the lack of happy resources and I think Monarchy will be very powerful in the short and long run.

With some luck we can land a religion, but that’s not a must. A missionary would be another powerful bargaining chip though. Then we can revolt to Organized Religion + Hereditary Rule (at a discount, because we’re organized!)

I’d need to check the ingame beaker costs before we can see which trades we can do. I was thinking we could trade Writing and Alphabet for Monarchy (with Writing to be given as soon as it is discovered, we could flip them a cheap religious tech in exchange). We'll need to ask them if they plan on beelining. I'll check tonight how long the researching would take.

i like the monarchy path but ideally we'd involve someone who will trade CoL.

i have serious doubts we'll be first to any religion, but it doesn't look like a bad plan anyway. that is, if we can get other people involved. we should definitely work to include others into this plan. maths, aesthetics, iron working, CoL could all be included.

writing+alpha would come out = in beakers with mono+monarchy.

rsch will be slow. poly = 180, masonry = 144, mono = 216, monarchy = 540

*very* rough estimates, probably optimistic, are poly = 11-12 turns, masonry = 7-8 turns, mono = ~10 turns, monarchy = ~20 turns

let's say 50ish turns in all. considering we'd get started on turn ~60-65, that's a long way out. cottages will bring the rate up, maintenance as we add new cities will bring it back down.

i was thinking that since we're unlikely to go for either the oracle nor get to hinduism/mono first, if we can get someone to come in for monarchy, we can agree to trade around CoL + (hopefully) get the religion ourselves. i think we're looking at similar amounts of time for CoL and monarchy so worth a thought.

[Ilios]

i like the monarchy path but ideally we'd involve someone who will trade CoL.

I agree that we'd want CoL for the cheap Rathauses in the long run, but they will only become necessary and effective once we start founding new cities and our cities get bigger. As long as our cities stay small because of the happy cap, the maintenance costs will be bearable. (especially once those cottages are built)

rsch will be slow. poly = 180, masonry = 144, mono = 216, monarchy = 540

*very* rough estimates, probably optimistic, are poly = 11-12 turns, masonry = 7-8 turns, mono = ~10 turns, monarchy = ~20 turns

Do those beaker costs take the prereqs into account?

[meatbalz]

the beaker costs don't, the research times do pre-requisites are applied to how many beakers/turn you generate, not the total cost of the tech