RBP3 [Spoilers] Capac of Mali

[Swiss Pauli]

Yes, I am rubbish at navigating

I'm sure they'll put a cheap library in Gib, but I'll see whether I can persuade them to avoid theatres and such.

[Swiss Pauli]

Moved Chrissie south, moved Lucky SE (I think that's correct ), requested Construction from Carthage, and ended turn.

[Swiss Pauli]

Logged in this morning and noticed that France popped up in the diplo screen: they have a warrior SE of Sirian, hence my post in the public player's thread

[dsplaisted]

T82: A new barb Warrior has appeared on the rice west of Uberfish, and the existing barb is 1 west of the Silver. Sirian has finished the Library, and with all the barbs appearing (and Axes on the horizon), it should probably start a military unit next. I've set it to a Chariot for now since it might be good to fight against Axes, but feel free to change it.

Black can move onto the Silver to defend against the barb, and then should be able to take care of the second barb next turn. Jack could move SE to provide support in a few turns, or 2S to uncover more fog. Sirian could also switch to working both mines if we decide we need to finish a Skirmisher there this turn.

Bianca and L'Wren are on the Silver Mine, and I'm not sure what to do with them. Uberfish's border pops in 2 turns, and ideally they could start farming on that turn, but the barbs complicate matters.

I'd suggest Marianne build a farm SE of Paint it Brown. Chrissie can put 1 turn into a road E of Blake this turn, put 1 turn chop into the Jungle 2S of Blake next turn, and then help Marianne build her farm. Our cities aren't near the happy cap right now so I don't think we're in any hurry to hook the dyes up.

Jerry should probably build a Cottage west of Sticky Fingers so the city will have another good tile to work when it grows in three turns. Carla should probably work on building a road to get trade routes with England. Can we build roads in England's territory?

Bill and Ronnie have been left to heal. Satisfaction could explore Southeast or head back home for defense- any opinions?

[Swiss Pauli]

Chat with Krill of Egypt earlier today:

13:21
me: afternoon

Krill: hi mate

me: how's tricks?

Krill: ok, I suppose
13:22
just killing barbs and trying to get more units over to France

and enjoying my day off
13:23
me: good stuff

We seem to have got off relatively light on barbs so far

which probably means we'll get a massive stream of axes coming in

Krill: good to hear. It seems that Maya are atracting all of them atm
13:24
not on the masive stream of axes though

me: no, they're due around T90 apparently

Krill: ah, ok

me: Cyneheard was explaining it
13:25
but he included a formula at which point my eyes galzed over

Krill: yeah, I know that feeling
13:26
me: *glazed
13:27
Krill: I'm always surprised at the lengths people go to figure that stuff out

just wondering, but you got an eta on Calendar?
13:28
me: yeah, I'm very much in the 'gentleman amateur' when it comes to CIV

Calendar will be a rather unimpressive T88
13:29
Krill: it's not bad

although

I don; have any calendar resources to hook up yet

me: We have a river dyes

under jungle

Krill: ouch
13:30
atleast you have it though

me: Our land is a bit sucky overall

Krill: quite a lot of it is sucky

me: but we'll try to squeeze the most out of it

Krill: India have loads of food, I'm lucky to be scraping +5 in most cities
13:31
all land maps really need lots of food res

me: +5 paradise! when I were lad, etc

Krill: lol

me: we have FPs

but too much desert

Krill: I should rename my civ New zealand, tha amount of sheep it has

ouch
13:32
me: or wales

where the men are men and the sheep are frightened

Krill: Don;t tell Morgan that

He's from Wales

and I live about 20 miles form the border

*from
13:33
me: he'll have heard it a million times before
13:34
which techs are we aiming for in the coming round?

Eng had CS, Mech & Feud listed

Krill: depends on Rome and Portugal IMO

if we get them, I think we can afford a fourth techer

so CS, machinery, Fued and 1 other

probably up towards music
13:35
get HE/NE, and theatres up and running

start getting infra structure in place to support wars

on that note, I was thinking you were likely the best fourth techer

as a fin civ that hasn't been in a war
13:37
me: yeah, but I was wonder whether we'd be a better financier what with cheap mints and full price libraries

so maybe we should review the outputs in a few turns

Krill: long term, yeah, I agree with you

me: as we've only just gotten silver online

Krill: ah, ok
13:38
fwiw, I'm making about 45 ish bpt but costing up to 25 gpt to sustain that

me: fence jumping cost us a fair amount of our research capacity

but that will start to 'normalise' over the next few turns
13:39
Krill: I don;t quite understand?

me: Level playing field in terms of techs and key improvements (ie capital silver)
13:40
Krill: ah, ok

Perhaps England would be a good researcher?

cheap libs

but not fin, so not that high a bpt

but can sort that all out later
13:41
me: Maybe we can all finance Carthage

Krill: that economy is just nuts
13:42
no idea how they get that many beakers from just cottages at this stage of hte game

me: Have you seen Boring?

I guess not

Krill: No

only see Lakewood and St. Paul

me: It's sick

Double plains river furs

river marble

Krill: ...

me: grass copper

Krill: what happened to balance?
13:43
me: on plains hill

and they felt able to leave river pigs for another city

Krill:
13:44
me: and some grass rivers

Krill: uber city

me: hence the name

Krill: Yeah
13:45
me: We're going for an overlap strategy

to get the max from cottage cheese
13:46
Krill: h

Wish I could do that

all my food is so spread out I haaven't got a single tile of overlap yet
13:47
I think I'm looking at no mroe than 5 tiles of overlap in the core.
13:48
me: Eng said similar thing

Krill: Some of us are really going to need Biology
13:49
I'm quite annoyed that this is the second time Sullla has created a food poor map tbh.
13:50
me: I just don't think balance was a consideration beyond the capitals

and horses and metals

Krill: Can't have been, when you consider Boring
13:51
me: or the FP-deset belt

*desert

or the river systems
13:52
Krill: haven' seen much of hte river systems.
13:53
me: incoming email

from me to you
13:54
Krill: thanks mate, reading now

me: skip to the attachements
13:55
Krill: ooh, gems

tasty

that land to your NE is desolate
13:56
me: guess which way we sent our starting warrior?
13:57
Krill: you didn;t
13:58
you kept in in your capital

or it got eaten turn 10

if the latte, you sent it NE

me: yup

Krill: that sucks

me: yup

but thems the breaks
13:59
SE would have been worse!

Krill: yeah, no cover whatsoever
14:04
me: I see you got third ring horses

Krill: yeah

me: at least they didn't get balanced away :D
14:05
Krill: I would have flown to america and wrung sulllas' neck with my own two hands

me: rofl
14:06
Will ruff be updating his map or is he now out of the loop?
14:07
Krill: I don;t know

I haven't heard anything about a map update

tbh, not that interested in a second map. I'm happy to wait to paper now
14:08
and get a proper one in game

have to scout out trade routes ourselves anyway

me: we got river ones with Carthage

Krill: and have met everyone in game, so don;t need directions or knowing where the forests are

me: and they sent us their spare furs
14:09
Krill: nice

me: so we owe them a favour

we would have trade routes with Inca if we opened borders

but we'll get some routes to Eng soon enough
14:10
Krill: You are close enough together

me: Yeah, we got the short straw with the CRE civs
14:11
Sury, Peri & EXP Inca

Krill: yeah, that kinda sucks
14:12
I know this is self serving, but if you got religion from Carthage, that would help

I can gift carthage a missionary to replace the one they gift to you
14:13
going to be difficult to survive culturally over there with no libs as well

me: Libs are going in now
14:14
but if we can spare a chariot to meet the missionary then it can't hurt
14:15
Krill: ok

just gotta get the missionaries out atm

I hate that limit of 3 from any one reliion right now
14:16
me: So you founded the shrine and India bulbed Jesusism?

Krill: nah

I have theo

so got 3 religions now
14:17
Not letting scumy India have a shrine to support their bloated empire

me: Krill the culture vulture

who'da thunk it

Krill: nah

I'll just take the shrine gold.
14:18
that and I have not had a single need to build an obelisk for culture yet

because of Spi

me: nice
14:19
we've been leaving culture for others, as you can see

Krill: yeah...

me: so our first non cap border pop now due in 2 :D

Krill: lol
14:20
t84 for a border pop

gotta be a record

me: reckon so

not sure it's a record we want to have though
14:21
Krill: depends

I didn;t tech pottery or BW like a noob and it worked out
14:22
me: well 3rd ring horses helped you skip BW I suppose
14:23
Krill: not really, couldn;t start chopping until t63

me: but you'd have lost Oracle

Krill: yeah

worked out ok
14:24
me: best get back to doing some work

thanks for the chat

bye for now

Krill: yeah, cya around mate

[Swiss Pauli]

Email exchange about the post-CAN/Hydra tech group (bottom to top). The group is Mali, Maya, Egypt, England, Babylon & Carthage:

Egypt wrote:

Comment on India - they were still flip flopping on what tech to research, so unless they have given you tech already, you don't owe them anything. I understand about Byz, and yeah, it's not ideal, but it wouldn't be nice to stiff them after the help that they have given you. India OTOH changed to aesthetics because they are self serving freeloaders.

Mali wrote:

Dear All,

We think it makes sense to keep Portugal on board for the coming phase of techs because they have the traits to recover from the war with Rome fairly quickly.

If Rome would be happy with a role as 'attack dog' we'd be happy for them to join.

We wouldn't want Inca in the group as we don't think they'd be able to contribute much having trashed their economy in the war with Azteca.

Best Wishes

Emperor Capac

On 9 April 2010 01:48, Maya wrote:

I agree with Kyan about not inviting Inca. Rome and Protugal I'm
ambivalent about. Is there a reason we want to do this?

BTW, I might as well let everyone know that I will have to give MC to
4 civs that are not currently in PAT, as they gave us techs via
agreements that in most cases were made before we got into CAN.

Rome - gave us fishing and Iron Working, without which we wouldn't
have been ABLE to research MC. Won't be an issue if they join PAT.

Portugal - gave us sailing... ok, that's not much, and we COULD just
pay them in gold, but I expect they'd be hopping mad if we gave it to
Rome but not them, and I wouldn't blame them. Again, not an issue if
they join PAT.

India - Allowed us to do MC in their stead, without which we'd be
hopelessly backwards. I feel we're duty bound to give it to them.
Frankly, we owe them.

Byzantium... I know this one won't be popular with several of you, and
I know they have been assholes to a couple of you, but we had
agreements with them dating back to before we met anyone else except
Mali, and they did give us 2 (admittedly garbage) techs for which we
had promised Math in return, a tech we will no longer be able to give
them of course. They've really been a very good neighbor to us, have
kept every agreement and then some, and have even offered assistance
killing the endless legions of barb warirors (soon to be axes and
archers you can be sure) that are swarming us like locust. (Killed 12
already, and we now have 8 more at or inside our boarders). So far
we've given them... well, nothing really...

Maybe we'll all want to gang up and kill them later, but, for now,
apologies to any of you that this upsets, but, because of their help
to this point, I feel duty bound to honor our agreement and give them
a tech in return as we promised.

~Maniac

On 4/8/10, Egypt wrote:
> I approve of Pat and JM as the new names :b:
>
> Krill
>
> On 8 April 2010 22:54, Babylon wrote:
>
>> Since i kept calling us the post-can, which reminded me of postman; the
>> logical next word in my weird and wonderful word is Pat.
>>
>> Therefore i'm calling us Pat
>>
>> Dear Pat,
>>
>> Babylon would strongly encourage Portugal's inclusion in the group. We
>> have
>> to be wary though of inviting someone who may spill our plans. I
>> definitely
>> think they'd be our preferred civ out of the remaining ones to invite. If
>> we
>> want Rome also- i'm happy with that.
>>
>> Inca i'd rather not. They have made no effort diplomatically and i get the
>> distinct impression they didnt care too much about the game. We don't need
>> all 3 surely? Besides, Inca are largely crippled so of little good to the
>> 'junk mail' (oh yeah, im a creative genius) group.
>>
>> Kyan
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:31 PM, Egypt
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> FWIW, I tend to feel that if we could get Rome, Portugal and Inca to be
>>> aggressive for tech, and threaten the other teams around them, it's worth
>>> doing. It basically opens up another front for each and every civ that is
>>> outside our group, and forcing them to split their armies means we have
>>> less
>>> to fear, and less to attack through if some of us decide to go on the
>>> offensive.
>>>
>>> If otoh all they want to do is spam cities over the map (and not grow
>>> responsibly) then they aren't really worth working with.
>>>
>>> Krill
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8 April 2010 21:38, England wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think we've got a good chance of being able to bring Portugal into
>>>> CAN2
>>>> or whatever we want to call ourselves, if we ask them. England
>>>> personally
>>>> has had a good relationship with them, and they haven't been terribly
>>>> pleased with diplomatic developments (specifically, they're not too
>>>> happy
>>>> with threats of Ottoman belligerence), and aren't a future-expansion
>>>> border
>>>> of any CAN members. I want to make the ask to bring them in soon, but
>>>> need
>>>> some input, at least "this is fine with me" or "Here's why I don't think
>>>> so." Portugal will probably have to be a funder, since their economy
>>>> isn't
>>>> the strongest after their bloody war, but they need some time to rebuild
>>>> (they're trying to negotiate a peace with Rome, don't know how that will
>>>> turn out).
>>>>
>>>> Also, to support Portugal, we might need to ask Rome and/or Inca to come
>>>> in, as well. Please let me know about any objections you may have on any
>>>> of
>>>> these three civs being invited in. I see no reason to bring in just Rome
>>>> and
>>>> Inca if Portugal isn't in, but others may disagree. Rome and Inca will
>>>> desperately need Carthage contact arranged (we're a few turns from Roman
>>>> contact, assuming our barb luck holds); Egypt and Portugal have full
>>>> contact, and it's Math and Construction that we'd need to get into those
>>>> civs' hands ASAP. I think all three of those civs would be more of a
>>>> military arm, especially Rome/Inca, and funding the tech of one of the
>>>> four
>>>> civs of Carthage/Maya/Mali/Babylon.
>>>>
>>>> If I can get some responses in the next 12-18 hours, I can make the ask
>>>> to bring Portugal in. Otherwise, it'll have to go to somebody else
>>>> (Carthage?). If we get Portugal in, can you let me know if you think
>>>> you'd
>>>> be the right person to talk to Rome and/or Inca, if we decide to try to
>>>> work
>>>> with them?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Cyneheard, Haphazard1, Antisocialmunky
>>>> Lords of Avalon
>>>> Suryavarman II of England
>>>>

[Swiss Pauli]

England's T&C proposal for the new tech alliance (PAT):

From: England
Date: 9 April 2010 17:37
Subject: PAT Terms
To: PAT


So, the other thing we need to do, is come up with the formal terms of what we're agreeing to do. I'm intentionally distinguishing the pre-Currency and post-Currency situation; the game changes a lot with Currency.

England's proposal:

1) Sharing of techs and gold in an equitable manner:
- Researchers will be chosen based on the following criteria:
a) Maximum Beaker Rate
b) Beaker-Gold Skew (For example, at current rates, England can convert 43 gold into 51 beakers, for a 51/43 = 1.19 skew; Babylon's is certainly significantly high)
c) Gold availability/costs per turn: If we can't fund everybody's research, then this will be quite relevant
d) Availability to start a new tech (not likely to be an issue long-term; this is more for the pre-Currency situation. For example, since Carthage has the highest max beaker rate at the moment, and has finished Construction, so can save some gold now, it's expected they'll start one of the next rounds of tech as soon as they're available)

Funders:
As long as a funder is sufficiently supporting research, they are owed all techs researched upon request. If a civ is not meeting the definition of "sufficiently supporting research", then gifting the researcher tech is at the discretion of the researcher.
A definition of "sufficiently supporting research":
a) Supporting, in gold, at least 60% of the cheapest researcher's costs OR supporting at least 50% of the most expensive researcher's costs, whichever is lower. At the moment, this is a very low value (England's costs are 28gpt, because of our large army, so 14 gold would be "50% of the most expensive", but for, say, Babylon, whose costs are around 15-18gpt, 60% of that is only 10-12gpt). Essentially, if we get to 8 civs, we're guaranteed 3 researchers, and hopefully can get up to 4, or at least mostly-fund the 4th researcher.
- Subclause: Temporary exemptions for war-related reasons. This is for either large offensive operations, or for defensive conflicts where you need to whip your economy into the ground to survive.
b) If the current researchers are not being fully funded, and a funders' civ has gold available, it needs to go to fund the researchers.
- Subclause: Possible exemption: If you can justify that an upgrade is needed to prevent damage to your civ.

Lightbulbs:
Also owed to everybody, as if researched. First-civ bonuses are still your own (Liberalism's free tech is considered a lightbulbed tech).

Wonders:
All reasonable steps should be taken to avoid wonder races within PAT members. If an agreement can't be reached, one option is to have a third civ use a random number generator like random.org to decide who gets to go for the wonder; the civ researching the tech would get 2 chances, every one else interested would get one. Or you can race.

2) Bilateral relations:
- NAPs are considered amongst all PAT members to be in effect for the duration of this alliance, with a 10t cooldown.
- No obligations for mutual defense. While we want everyone to ensure the mutual safety of all PAT members, England does not believe it's fair to force you to defend your neighbor if it puts yourself at risk. Mutual defense is strongly encouraged.
- Settling: be reasonable. Again, we're not going to dictate terms, but when in doubt, tiles closer to a players' capital should belong to that player.
-Offensive operations: That is fully at the discretion of your own civ. Except for gold, as previously mentioned, any and all benefits of offensive war are fully yours.

3) Outside tech trades
Any tech researched after Currency is finished cannot be traded to non-PAT members without at least majority approval.

4) Dissolution:
So, while ideally this organization will last until the game end, we all know that there's a chance someone would want to leave. However, we'd also like to ensure that anyone who does leave isn't leaving their allies who funded their research in the cold without the techs that their soon-to-be-ex-allies paid for.

Our dissolution proposal:
No warfare within 10t of announcing your desire to leave PAT.
Any techs researched or lightbulbed within that cooldown period are still owed to PAT members (letting a tech sit at 99% finished on the 10th turn would be in very bad faith). However, any techs researched by the remaining PAT teams during that time are NOT owed to any civs leaving PAT. Also, during that 10t dissolution, a civ leaving PAT is under no obligation or expectation to fund research.

--
Cyneheard, Haphazard1, Antisocialmunky
Lords of Avalon
Suryavarman II of England

Some of it is fine, parts seem OTT, and some is unrealistic (this group can't last to the games end surely).

[Swiss Pauli]

T82: A new barb Warrior has appeared on the rice west of Uberfish, and the existing barb is 1 west of the Silver. Sirian has finished the Library, and with all the barbs appearing (and Axes on the horizon), it should probably start a military unit next. I've set it to a Chariot for now since it might be good to fight against Axes, but feel free to change it.

Black can move onto the Silver to defend against the barb, and then should be able to take care of the second barb next turn. Jack could move SE to provide support in a few turns, or 2S to uncover more fog. Sirian could also switch to working both mines if we decide we need to finish a Skirmisher there this turn.

Bianca and L'Wren are on the Silver Mine, and I'm not sure what to do with them. Uberfish's border pops in 2 turns, and ideally they could start farming on that turn, but the barbs complicate matters.

I'd suggest Marianne build a farm SE of Paint it Brown. Chrissie can put 1 turn into a road E of Blake this turn, put 1 turn chop into the Jungle 2S of Blake next turn, and then help Marianne build her farm. Our cities aren't near the happy cap right now so I don't think we're in any hurry to hook the dyes up.

Jerry should probably build a Cottage west of Sticky Fingers so the city will have another good tile to work when it grows in three turns. Carla should probably work on building a road to get trade routes with England. Can we build roads in England's territory?

Bill and Ronnie have been left to heal. Satisfaction could explore Southeast or head back home for defense- any opinions?

We now have Construction, and I requested Mono from Egypt.

Moved Satisfaction back to play zone defence at Brown, moved Jack 1SE to keep close to Sticky, and I agree with all your suggestions so I made the necessary moves. My proposal at Sirian/Uberfish is as follows:



Workers road the tile that Jack moves to, Charlie moves out to the silver mine, and Ian (previously unnamed warrior at Sirian) moves to the grass hill mine. Even if the barb kills Ian he should be wounded, leaving Charlie to mop up. We can afford the unhappy from not having garrisons for a couple of turns at least.

What do you think?

[dsplaisted]

Workers road the tile that Jack moves to, Charlie moves out to the silver mine, and Ian (previously unnamed warrior at Sirian) moves to the grass hill mine. Even if the barb kills Ian he should be wounded, leaving Charlie to mop up. We can afford the unhappy from not having garrisons for a couple of turns at least.

Charlie is the Warrior guarding Uberfish, and Ian is the one guarding Sirian? And after the move both cities will be empty? Sounds like a good plan to me as long as the lack of garrisons doesn't cause any citizens to go on strike.

EDIT: Also, can you summarize the diplomatic situation? Is the proposal to bring some more people into the alliance, or to reform an alliance with some previous allies left out?

[Swiss Pauli]

Chat with Broker covers the diplo situation:

19:21 me: Expansion prospects OK short term (there's a corn, pigs, iron spot in the fog)
19:22 and we should be able to claim a gems city
but longer term we'll probably want to attack Inca to claim the entire FP region
19:23 Paul: So North and East are allies correct
Inca to the south?
19:24 me: Indeed. Ally also to west (Maya) but they're a bit further away.
Paul: Do we have settle agreement west there was alot of land there
would prefer to have agreements with allies and push towards inca
19:25 I recall we grabed some spots from England any fallout from that?
me: We can't push any more towards Inca atm
No, Sticky was an 'allowed' location
19:26 And Gib was settled before we could put down a blocking city
19:27 Paul: ok
just trying to get the broad strokes
me: There's a handy map that ruff put together
Paul: Inca is not in the tech alliance are they falling behind or has a counter been found?
19:28 me: (will some back to Inca)
but map is in the Maps folder
of the capac account, attached to email from ruff
Has our land all edited together
19:29 as well as Egypt, Carthage, Aztec, India & Portugal
Not heard from Inca since we dumped Heracles
19:30 CAN/Hydra is about to fall apart
and be replaced by PAT
Which is us, Maya, Babylon, England & Egypt
Paul: PAT?
19:31 me: Doesn't mean anything much
19:32 post-can => postman => kids TV character 'postman pat'
and the others become Junk Mail (JM).
19:33 Paul: Ah ok
So hydra split unders its own weight?
19:34 me: No...reading between the lines Krill's not happy with India
so they're getting dumped
along with others (Ottomans) who expanded too fast
or got trashed in wars (Azteca)
19:35 Maybe Rome & Portugal get invited