We just watch. And Judge. FFH PBEM III Lurker Thread.

[Gaspar]

I get the impression that WK is fond of flimsy excuses for getting into wars. His beef with the Sheaim doesn't make a whole lot of sense either. "You possibly maybe sunk a fairly insignificant boat of mine, so I'm going to try to destroy you, without even first asking you to clarify what happened." I can sort of see his side with why he wants to fight Thoth- I'd be upset too in his situation. But as Selrahc pointed out, again he isn't even bothering to contact Thoth to find out what the deal was with him apparently leaking the NAP details. Obviously he's doing it to preserve the element of surprise, but purposely remaining ignorant about what really happened regarding your boat / secrecy clause by intentionally not contacting the supposedly responsible party, just so that you can maintain a plausible excuse for why you're going to surprise attack, them is pretty slimy. Kind of reminds me of the USS Maine in the Spanish - American War; don't investigate too hard why your boat actually exploded, or you might not any longer have a "valid" excuse for a war.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner. Much as I like Brian's idea that Mardoc is that slick in diplomacy, I promise you, partnered with him in several games, he is not. WK doesn't like his position and so is using the flimsiest of excuses to break NAPs. While I think there is some justification in each case, the right thing to do is address it with the party, and then break your NAP diplomatically.

[Bobchillingworth]

Nyk should probably stop counter-attacking Thoth with fireballs and tigers every turn. He/she isn't going to ever get a kill that way, and it's just feeding him exp thanks to March erasing all of the damage. Might be best to just use the summons as a replaceable spam meatshield instead, to stall until Mardoc can join or something.

[Brian Shanahan]

Winner, winner, chicken dinner. Much as I like Brian's idea that Mardoc is that slick in diplomacy, I promise you, partnered with him in several games, he is not. WK doesn't like his position and so is using the flimsiest of excuses to break NAPs. While I think there is some justification in each case, the right thing to do is address it with the party, and then break your NAP diplomatically.

Maybe he is taking lesson. And the main reason why I'm painting him as possibly being that clever diplomatically is that I am trying to reason through my opinion that WK is not justifed and then show what my reasoning is coming up with. Basically I started with a feeling of "something isn't right (not fully thought through) the way WK is going on," and the more I discussed it (and had to think on it) the more reasons I found to reinforce my viewpoint (hopefully without being to confirmation biased).

Hopefully if I work hard on it in situations like this I'll be better able to evaluate similar situations in my own game (where the information will be more scanty).

[Rowain]

Game may be over very shortly if I fall like that.

Had you not broken the alliance to kill off an unimportant neighbour Thoth wouldn't steamroll to victory already.

I really wonder what wonderfull weed WK was smoking when he was signing the NAP with Thoth and gave him free reign to kill off Nyk first and Mardoc second.

[Gaspar]

And the biggest lesson to the other players in this game (Thoth has played brilliantly) is if the leader tries to get you to stagger NAPs, tell him to stuff it.

[Amelia]

Actually, if i was WK i would have played it like that as well. Attacking Thoth has no benefits apart from cutting down the runaway, he's too far to get gains from it. Once Thoth is done, what next? Nyk and Mardoc taking over Thoth and becoming first instead?

If Nyk/Mardoc actually did their jobs properly, Thoth might have met with much more difficulties. Meanwhile, WK would have taken over the Sheaim, and expanded from there to become a major power.

[Koenigsegg]

Since I'm out of the game and can finally read everything, I do not deny that WK wasn't totally wrong to take me out. Though by signing the NAP with Thoth and DoW on me, the entire Thoth runaway situation became much favorable for Thoth. I guess WK was hoping to outrace Thoth by grabbing Sheaim's land while expecting Nyk/Mardoc to put up an even fight with Thoth.

Then again if we could rewind back a couple more turns, I feel that he should not sign the NAP with the Sheaim but to attack them instead. Well that's assuming he knows that the Sheaim has numbers of workers comparable to the military units.

[Rowain]

Actually, if i was WK i would have played it like that as well. Attacking Thoth has no benefits apart from cutting down the runaway, he's too far to get gains from it. Once Thoth is done, what next? Nyk and Mardoc taking over Thoth and becoming first instead?

If Nyk/Mardoc actually did their jobs properly, Thoth might have met with much more difficulties. Meanwhile, WK would have taken over the Sheaim, and expanded from there to become a major power.

Sorry but sitting back and saying other should do it will always bring unwanted results. And WK was already bordering Thoth so he was not sooo far away.
Besides there is no need that he directly attacks. It would have been enough to not sign the NAP (same for Mardoc). Had Thoth needed to worry over his other borders the Elves could have resisted much better. And thanks to sanctuary WK could still have taken out the Sheaim.

[Mardoc]

Actually, if i was WK i would have played it like that as well. Attacking Thoth has no benefits apart from cutting down the runaway, he's too far to get gains from it. Once Thoth is done, what next? Nyk and Mardoc taking over Thoth and becoming first instead?

If Nyk/Mardoc actually did their jobs properly, Thoth might have met with much more difficulties. Meanwhile, WK would have taken over the Sheaim, and expanded from there to become a major power.

Oh, what next? That would have been easy - court me to ally against Nyktorion, while quietly building up in the wings and taking out Sheaim. Or get Nyk to ally against me, with the same story.

Besides, WK could definitely have taken some of Thoth's land for himself.

I know I made some mistakes in the war - but 'did my job properly' - hah! Thoth was way too far ahead for anything but a well-coordinated dogpile to have a chance, and when WK dropped out, so did our chances.

[Mardoc]

Besides there is no need that he directly attacks. It would have been enough to not sign the NAP (same for Mardoc). Had Thoth needed to worry over his other borders the Elves could have resisted much better. And thanks to sanctuary WK could still have taken out the Sheaim.

For WK, that might have been enough since he had both an army and Sanctuary. For me - I'd have had to build an army to affect Thoth's behavior at all, which would have taken my economy from 'behind' to ''