Dave Leads the Thousand Nations of the Persian Empire

[oledavy]

Thanks for the explanation T-Hawk

[SIZE="7"]Turn 91[/SIZE]

Mist gifted me his 2 Iron, and Never Surrender fell to the English.



Yuris now suddenly has 7 surplus iron, and with Bombadier in his possession is about to control a lot more. Lucky....

He also offered me this:



Which I accepted. No real reason not to since I'm trying to cozy up to him

I return, I sent him this:



In ten turns my first frigate will be in position to provide supporting fire around the Helsinki area. Next turn, I intend to offer Yuris the same deal but with 9 gold coming from me. Hopefully he'll get the idea. As to whether or not he'll actually declare war on Seven, we'll soon see.

[Commodore]

Holy crap, that's an AI diplo option? That...makes CTON a very, very different animal.

[oledavy]

[SIZE="7"]Turn 92[/SIZE]

:2dance:

Yuris is willing to declare war on Seven.



He evidently missed that the 10 gold was the start of a countdown. I thought long and hard whether or not to accept, eventually deciding against it. His military is out of position and couldn't do anything right away to stem the Aztec tide. While it would buy Mist some immediate relief, I would rather Yuris was actually able to do something. At least when I do want him to declare war, I know his price I sent this back:



Hopefully, he'll connect the dots that I want to declare war on Seven, but not just yet. His trireme is now scouting my territory. In the south, my scout has spotted the Aztec armies besieging the city of crow.



There was a Mohawk Warrior on the tile the Longswordsman now sits on last turn, looks like Seven killed it. Still, Crow should be able to hold. With rivers surrounding the city, Seven is going to have a hard time maneuvering his forces and attacking without a penalty. Also note the borders of Kiowa peeking out of the western fog.

Here's hoping Mist holds out long enough for my frigates and Yuris' longbows to get into position.

[oledavy]

Community Opinion - Would it be an ethical play to build a city in my backlines and gift it to fire&ice just to keep him alive so I can sign research agreements with him?

[Injera]

Community Opinion - Would it be an ethical play to build a city in my backlines and gift it to fire&ice just to keep him alive so I can sign research agreements with him?

I'm going to guess a number of people would have a problem with that.

Here's hoping yuri gets the message and doesn't think you're insane.

[Gaspar]

Community Opinion - Would it be an ethical play to build a city in my backlines and gift it to fire&ice just to keep him alive so I can sign research agreements with him?

Its been done before - Bob harbored Sareln in FFH1 for palace mana and such. But I personally would find it shady.

[Injera]

Do you have any useful boats you can upgrade now that you have iron?

[Bobchillingworth]

Its been done before - Bob harbored Sareln in FFH1 for palace mana and such. But I personally would find it shady.

To the best of my recollection, nobody made too much of a stink about it at the time. I would say that it's legitimate play. You just almost never see anyone else doing it because there is little purpose in bts and I can't think of any FFH games since the first which have had both appropriate geography and willing participants.

[oledavy]

Still mulling it over. The city I would found and give to fire&ice would be the town in the eastern pass. It doesn't have a whole lot going for it and wouldn't be a terrific loss if I didn't found it myself. I'm leaning towards doing it, because I think there are two key differences between doing it here and in Civ4.

1. It Doesn't Hurt Anyone - In Civ4, keeping someone alive if they were at war with another party would mean prolonging WW and motherland unhappiness in all the winning powers' cities. Here, there is no direct impact on Yuris. He can be at war with fire&ice for the rest of the game and it will not affect him in the least. Having the final American city tucked away between Mist and me probably means he won't be capable of sending any military Yuris' way either.

2. There Is A Significant Opportunity Cost/Risk To Me - Lots of stuff can go wrong here. What if:
- Fire&Ice wants to leave this game ASAP and he doesn't accept the city-gift. Suddenly I'm stuck with an additional city I really didn't want to settle right now.
- Fire&Ice accepts the gold I front him for research agreements, then immediately spends it or refuses to sign any RAs with me.
- He declares war on me during the course of the RA to break it.

So yeah, this deal doesn't actually guarantee me any additional Research Agreements, just the opportunity to sign them. Furthermore I would be paying basically twice as much gold to sign them as normal, paying my half and Fire&Ice's half.

[Injera]

I think the question is, what's f&i gaining from it? If it gave him a slim chance to be relevant, or you were hell bent on liberating his capitol- fine move. But I don't think either of those two things is likely to happen with your current strategy.

Or to think of it another way, if Mist was falling and you did the same offer, I think it would be a fine move, as you've invested a lot of blood and treasury helping him fight and you'd be likely to try and liberate his cities. I just don't see that being the case with f&i.

You're definitely right, though, that the dynamics of it is a lot different than in Civ4. Ultimately it's your call.