[SPOILERS - PBEM19] Huayna Capac of Ottomans - yuris125 & Maestro

[yuris125]

And with this, I'm out of here. Maestro, all saves are yours for the next week. Although you won't get rid of my valuable insights that easily :neenernee My laptop can run Civ after all: barely, but good enough to inspire crazy thoughts in my head

[Nicolae Carpathia]

Thanks for the update. No idea how that weird culture effect works, I only know the basic rules of Civ.

[Maestro]

Turn 100. Lots of whipping this turn!

• Whipped library at Retro
  
• Whipped courthouse at Dinamit (worth over 6 gold per turn!)
  
• Whipped courthouse at Monte Carlo (a meager 4 gold per turn here)
  
• Whipped lighthouse at NRJ
  
• Whipped granary at Hit FM
  
• Fixed grass forset -> plains cottage tile at Rock FM
  
• Inserted Forge at Europa. Hammam is 36/67, but we don't need the happiness straight away. Forge gives +1 happy from gems, and the sooner we get forge, the sooner it pays for itself in extra hammers.
  
• Started forge at Echo. Only takes 3 turns, thanks to IND.
  
• Went to 50% research for a turn. Finishes Education and gives us +26 gold.
  
• Debated a bit about what to build next at Maximum. It was 1 turn from growth, so I didn't want to queue up a worker and delay growth. I thought about market to increase the shrine bonus, but instead went with a Missionary. We have 2 cities left without Buddhism, plus the 2 more we expect to settle soon.
  
• Moved Settler toward white dot.
  

[yuris125]

I was going to argue about a Forge in E+, it is only going to give 1 extra hpt. I totally forgot that Forge bonus also applies to whips, and extra 5 hammers per whipped pop is substantial. So you can call me stupid if you want , and get Forges up everywhere we don't have them

I like a LH whip in NRJ, but I don't think we should whip it much more, it's food poor, has a few hammers, so it can build everything else it needs by itself

One more piece of micro - I would give gems to Next FM for now, and switch Echo of Moscow to another water tile. Echo doesn't have any multipliers yet, so we won't lose anything by giving gems to an undeveloped city

It sounds like we don't have Cats built anywhere, have we given up on an attack on MNG? I think it could gain us something, especially taking into account RL7's message

Hey,

I've been thinking about the NAP but I'm not sure what would be a good trade, yet. Our happy cap is high at the moment so the ivory isn't very meaningful or important. Maybe a good chunk of gold?

If we do continue our nap, we'd also be willing to sell you some galleons if you're interested.

Seven

If we can sign that NAP, and buy Galleons off him, we won't have to worry about fleet to deliver our stack to MNG's land, and the Galleons can be used elsewhere too, their lifespan is relatively long

How much would you be willing to pay for extending the NAP with them? I think I would pay up to 200g for a 20t extension, but I have no idea how much it actually costs - and how much they would charge for Galleons, too. They most likely need gold to catch up in research they sacrificed to get powerful military out, so paying them too much would only make our catch up task harder. On the other hand, if we don't extend the NAP, we risk losing every chance of catching up, if they attack us on T112

No MNG's cities have fallen this turn, but of course it's unclear if RL7 got stuck, or are just regrouping. One turn without them capturing a city means nothing

[yuris125]

Discussed things with Maestro, and we will stall NAP negotiations for a few turns. Gunpowder is due in 3-4 turns, which is much sooner than I expected. Thus, I think we should have enough time to build up defences should it be necessary. So, the questions are:

* How much losses will RL7 suffer?
* How beneficial would an attack on MNG be for us?

The answer for both questions will be clearer in a few turns. Then we will be able to make a better decision on how much we're willing to pay for the NAP + Galleons

[yuris125]

A thought. Feel free to ignore. I would consider whipping Market in Nashe Radio. It's one of the cities where we want a Uni; Uni costs 134 hammers, and Nashe only has 10hpt. It will be a bottleneck in producing the Unis needed for Oxford. Of course, whipping a large city with low food surplus is painful, but we will only lose 6 commerce per turn. I think it's necessary

Also, Nashe has an unmined grassland hill, which I think we need to mine and use asap, to get that Uni out faster

And another thing to consider, maybe it's time to chop ivory forests in Nashe to get that Uni done faster. Definitely not a recommendation, but something to think about

Echo of Moscow needs a Forge and a Lib before it can build a Uni; if we can get Nashe finish its Uni not later than Echo does, it will be perfect

Meanwhile, Ultra will definitely finish a Uni faster than any other city, then it should switch to Janissaries. We want a few of them out regardless of whether we extend the NAP or not; if we do, I would move them to the southern cities to intimidate GES, and revisit the question of cancelling the NAP with him

Finally, consider chopping at least one of Ultra forests for its Uni. We won't need all of them for Oxford. Oxford is 268 hammers, double production speed with stone. Another reason to try to get that NAP with RL7, and be friendly with them in general: they're the only civ which can provide us with stone. Although my gut feeling is 4 forests should be enough to 1-turn Oxford even without stone. Can you check it? I don't do math on holidays :neenernee

[Maestro]

Interesting chat with Commodore:

Commodore: Hey Eric
Commodore: Please for the love of everything tell me that 765 GNP is you guys.
Maestro: ahhh
Maestro: negative
Maestro: we went 50% last turn
Commodore: Crud.
Commodore: That's...really bad.
Maestro: it's gotta be GES
Commodore: GES is at 0%.
Maestro: oh
Commodore: I have research visibility due to my rathauses' EPs
Maestro: my GNP graph shows GES #1
Commodore: He's dinking along at Machinery due in 7-turns
Maestro: but his gold is up to like 1500
Maestro: I noticed that last turn
Commodore: I know, graphs lag though, I was hoping.
Commodore: Man, that's...bad
Maestro: he makes 552 per turn
Commodore: I'm beelining Grenadiers.
Commodore: Yeah, my gpt is horrible when I save.
Commodore: My costs aren't too bad but I have a total of three markets.
Commodore: Need to institute a "grocers everywhere" policy.
Maestro: heh heh
Maestro: he has a lot of potential with the monk econoomy
Commodore: Yep
Maestro: Confu is far and away the most-spread
Maestro: so his shrine has to be nice
Maestro: he got AP +UoS, Spiral Minaret cna't be far behind
Commodore: He's probably heading to Spiral, yep.
Commodore: Islam FIADL any time now.
Maestro: Islam founded a few trusn ago
Maestro: 710 ad
Maestro: got it in his moai city
Commodore: Need to start reading the event log more often.
Maestro: it's actually hard to remember!
Maestro: In SP hose things pop up as you go. Here I have to remember to check the log
Commodore: Yeah, that's an annoying thing to check.
Maestro: I'm not sure what to do about GES. RL7 shouldn't be in the mood for any aggression for a while, given their success against France
Commodore: Ah, actually, we've been talking about that.
Commodore: France shouldn't take more than ten turns.
Maestro: nice
Commodore: Your Janissary potential means they can't easily hit you.
Maestro: we'll have Jans in 3 turns
Commodore: Once it's in the bag (shhh) we'll cancel our rolling NAPs
Commodore: He'll at least have to start putting hammers into defense forces.
Maestro: we have a 10-t rolling NAP with GES as well. I know we'd be happy to cancel if that would be useful
Commodore: We're probably going the Ironclad/Grenadiers route.
Commodore: That might be very useful.
Maestro: sure
Maestro: *anti-rifle
Commodore: Right.
Commodore: Offensive more than defensive.
Commodore: But then it's cannons and MGs
Maestro: yup yup
Maestro: which are great
Maestro: If you and RL7 are actively planning against GES, you're of course not obligated ot include us, but we'definitely be willing to contribute
Commodore: Awesome
Maestro: I'm not sure we'd actually take any of the land, as it's awkwardly positioned for us
Commodore: Right now it's in the "dang, he's huge, let's make him slow down" stages.
Maestro: yes
Maestro: his bottom rank in power is no good
Commodore: Well, you could probably advance down his hub.
Maestro: agreed
Commodore: I'd want the inner sea island site, but that's about it.
Maestro: The hub is the only practical front for us, I think.
Commodore: Hey, anything that ties up units.

Summary:

• RL7 and Commodore have been talking about attacking GES!
  
• RL7 thinks that France "shouldn't take more than ten turns"
  
• I intentionally dropped the 3 turns to Jans figure, hoping that Commodore will send that back RL7's way.
  
• I volunteered us to jointly cancel rolling NAPs with GES (Commodore has one as well)
  
• I also said we'd be "willing to contribute" to a GES attack. What that means is open for interpretation.
  

[Maestro]

So, upon opening the turn 111 save, I am greeted instantly with a trade offer from MNG: 98 gold per turn and his world map for free. I sure wouldn't mind free gold, but I don't believe we've really done much to justify the windfall. It feels more like a move to spite RL7. Ranamar was online, so I chatted with him:

Maestro: Hey Ranamar, you around?
Ranamar: hi
Ranamar: what's up?
Maestro: Bit of an ethical question for the game
Ranamar: oh?
Maestro: I just opened the turn, and MNG is offering us gold and map for nothing
Ranamar: and you have no idea why, I take it..
Maestro: I figure he just wants somebody that isn't you to get it :-p
Ranamar: I don't think it reduces pillage gold
Maestro: I know, I think it's more of a spite
Ranamar: right
Maestro: I believe he thinks we're enemies because of the razed city earlier
Maestro: And thus we're th most likely to "strike back" or whatever
Ranamar: Well... it was a pretty aggressive thing for us to do.
Ranamar: Anyway, if you're asking whether I think it'd be alright for you to take it, I'll say that I'd completely understand if you held the turn while you chased him down for an explanation.
Maestro: Yeah. It's only 98 gold, so not like it's game changing. But it still feels a little... not right
Ranamar: On the one hand, someone is going to probably end up getting screwed hard in one of these games, but... It was kind of Seven's fault that he got screwed so hard.
Ranamar: (like, closing borders coalition and all that)
Maestro: haha
Maestro: I think MNG just didn't reach out enough
Maestro: Made an enemy of Commodore with the settlements
Maestro: Didn't make us enough of a friend (wouldn't even short term NAP) to balk at closing borders
Ranamar: he did the same thing we did, only he refused to sign any NAPs.
Ranamar: so, you're probably right in that respect
Maestro: Yeah, I wouldn't feel bad if I were you guys. you took a weak opponent and got some land. It's pretty normal.
Ranamar: I certainly don't feel bad enough to not finish the job.
Maestro: haha
Maestro: Well I think I'll e-mail him and check in with Yuri
Ranamar: Sounds like a plan.
Maestro: I wanted to let you know in case it would upset you
Maestro: 98 gold is not worth any diplomatic fallout
Ranamar: I'm not sure I want to tell Seven, because I have a strong feeling he *would* be upset.
Maestro: haha
Maestro: I'll leave that to your discretion
Ranamar: I also ... don't want to find out.
Maestro: Mum's the word then.
Ranamar: but I'm sure we'd all feel a lot better if you chased him down
Maestro: Fair enough
Ranamar: If he's going to spite us, let us at least be open about it.
Ranamar: (I can't help thinking, "PBEM17 style ", but that seems harsh.)
Maestro: If I were a cruel bastard, I'd take the gpt and split it with you without telling him.
Maestro: But I don't think I am.
Maestro: :-p
Ranamar: Just to keep us quiet?
Ranamar: hahahaha
Ranamar: I won't quote you on that, either.
Maestro: Much obliged
Maestro: O:-)
Ranamar: *snork*
Maestro: That's pretty much it
Ranamar: alright; sounds good
Maestro: Good luck with the rest of your campaign! Seems to be going well so far :-)
Ranamar: thanks
Ranamar: TBH, except for one city, he's kind of imploding... but that's what happens in human games, because everyone runs light defense if they're not expecting to be attacked. <.<
Maestro: yeah
Maestro: especially at RB
Maestro: oh, just saw an e-mail from seven
Maestro: asking if MNG has horses or iron
Maestro: he has iron, no horses
Ranamar: yeah
Ranamar: his iron is in the north
Ranamar: Fortunately for him, so's his capital.
Maestro: yeah
Ranamar: Unfortunately for us, because we'll be seeing more maces.
Maestro: Ahh, bummer
Ranamar: 5 more turns and he would have been a much harder target, I'd say. We almost walked into empty cities
Ranamar: but I think I've said enough, and I have a SotS succession game to play
Maestro: haha
Maestro: Sounds good. Enjoy!
Ranamar: will do!

Based on that convo, I sent a quick e-mail to MNG (and CC'd Yuri as well):

Hey MNG,

I opened up the turn 101 save to see that you're offering us 98 gold per turn and the world map for free. While I do like free stuff, I thought it would be prudent to check in on your intent. Other teams will see a 98gpt turn on the active trade screen if they bother to check, so if we choose to accept, I'd like to be able to answer them if they ask me why you gave us that.
--
Maestro, Radioland

I plan to hold the save overnight, to give both Yuri and MNG a chance to respond before making a decision.

For the record, accepting the money to me feels a little wrong. It sure would help, even if only for a few turns, but I want to be sportsmanlike. Further, 98 gold isn't worth any diplomatic fallout to my mind. If GES or RL7 or Commodore didn't like it, and thus resented us for taking it, then it's not worth it to me.

[Maestro]

Some followups on the situation. I posted a quick note in the tech thread for people to not be alarmed by me holding the save. The Ranamar Lewwyn gmail account (not to be confused with Ranamar's personal account, which I chatted with earlier) hit me up:

Ranamar Lewwyn: what's your exciting situation?
EricAtCSU: heh heh, I'd rather confer before spilling
Ranamar Lewwyn: ok
Ranamar Lewwyn: np

Why did i say that, given that I already told Ranamar about the situation? he indicated that he'd rather not tell Seven about that right now, when we don't know what MNG's intentions were. No use causing conflict over a potential non-issue. So I fibbed a bit.

Why is this at all interesting? Well, either RL7 are engaging in an elaborate diplomatic charade, or there is some genuine conflict regarding the direction of the team. I'm inclined to believe the latter, so we should keep that in mind for future negotiations.

Later, I got a response from MNG:

Hi Maestro,

Unfortunately, the gpt part of the trade was a mislick. The map trade was intentional, since I don't think you have had a chance to update my portion of the map for a while, and you are likely to be surrounded on both sides by RL7 very soon - you deserve to know a bit more about what you're going up against.

Sorry about the mistake,
MNG

I'm not sure I believe that. To my understanding, in order to offer gold per turn, you have to 1) click the gpt in the trade window, 2) Specify the quantity of gpt, 3) Click "ok". That's a lot more than 1 misclick. I'm sure MNG is frustrated with the game. Maybe he offered the trade in the heat of that frustration and now regrets it, and it's just easier to call it a misclick. Either way, I responded with this:

No problem. I'll decline the existing trade, but I will propose a map exchange. We'd be happy to trade that info with you.
--
Maestro

It's 2am now, and I'm working tomorrow, so I'm still going to hold the save overnight. I don't want to play it now and mess things up. I look forward to your thoughts on all this, Yuri. I would have preferred to discuss with you first before engaging in any of this diplo, but I felt like it needed to be addressed immediately.

[yuris125]

Looks like you've done all the right things. I agree accepting a gift from MNG would be bad, but a map trade is perfectly fine. Well done!

RL7's and Commodore's discussion against GES sounds interesting. We definitely want to join any coordinated action. Coordinating NAP cancellation with Commodore is a good idea. Guess it's not urgent though, we can talk about it later