[PB75] Newbfragar and Rusty's Beginner's Guide to Civ4

[Mjmd]

I really didn't expect the Mjmd comeback,

A solid bet; I didn't either.

[naufragar]

All of you were far more passive towards him, than you were when i was the game leader (however brief). I dont understand it. Ive tried, but all i can think is that you guys would rather he win than me. Like point, click, that.

Let me start with this so that the rest of what I write doesn't feel personal.  I wanted you and Mjmd both to lose (and Civac and Ljubljana and Gavagai and... ). The only goal in my mind in these games is winning myself. When I attacked you, I thought I could cripple the front runner while getting more land for myself. I talk about this extensively in thread. I never thought I could cripple Mjmd while getting more land for myself. That's it. That's all there is to it. Between our war and your final war with Scooter/Gav, there was never any economic reason to give you open borders. Then, when your Scooter/Gav war came around and you started requesting Open Borders again (presumably to hit Mjmd), Mjmd was at Railroads and Machineguns, while my best units were Grenadiers. And at no point after that would an anti-Mjmd alliance with you have gotten me profit.

It's not my job to rein in a runaway if it doesn't improve my victory chances. If I sacrificed myself on the anti-Mjmd altar, my victory odds were still 0. If Ljubljana or Ginger had gone in (again, as I've written about extensively), I would've gone in as well because I would've gained from it.

Nauf, im 99% sure you helped Gavagai vs me, before i helped GT vs you.

You never helped GT versus me. You just incited him to attack me with promises of help at the same time that you were making peace talks with me in order to attack Gav. I'm not saying you betrayed me. You certainly betrayed GT, as his thread and my post-mortem makes clear.

Regardless, its a bigger tell of friendly relations especially after i GIFT YOU YOUR CITIES BACK. To open borders or not.

I was grateful to have the cities back, but the flatland, non-coastal one you were never going to hold. It was on flat land; I kept cultural control of its first ring tiles; I had cannons before you. I was taking that back no matter what. And after that I did signal friendly relations. Every time you sent an open borders request, I sent fish for fish. But you weren't interested in friendly relations. You were interested in using me to accomplish your goals:

I have probably the lowest chance of winning this game other than Scooter of course. BUT i can maybe give Mjmd some hell if Nauf EVER gives me OB. Remember Pb48? I might not have enough xp (nor the tech) for Commando Calvary/horse units.. But i have 1 GG to go till i can produce 2/3t Commando Gren's. or 1-2t Commando praets. I have plans. Most of them almost REQUIRE Nauf to do anything helpful.

I was very friendly with you afterwards. We had trades. Exchanged maps. Fish for fish. But because I wasn't helping your plans, you thought I was unfriendly! I was friendly. You just only saw me as a tool, not a friend. 

As far as not doing so because you are worried i would (or wouldnt) attack mjmd thru them? 1. I dont believe i was planning on anything. 2. AT LEAST SOMETHING WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE TO HIM.

1. See your thread quoted above.
2. You commando-striking Mjmd wouldn't help me win relative to Ljubljana or Ginger.

That's all it is, man. I do things when I think they'll help me win, and I don't do things when I think they won't help me win. Sometimes I miscalculate, but I promise it's not personal. 

[superdeath]

oh, i dont take things personal. They just sometimes come across as such.

Especially when its the same people typically declaring war/repeating the same actions. XD

As far as the open borders thing: I guess at the time i DID have something planned if i got open borders. I disagree that it wouldnt have helped you at all. The difference between grens and MG's isnt so large that we couldnt have done something about him together. I guess i dont see how (and it turned out like this) not doing anything HELPED your chances at all.

I could have probably went another row of cities further into your territory if i had wanted to at the time. But i gave our (b4 that war) game-long peaceful interactions the benefit and stopped. Being able to instant-retake a city or not doesnt factor into my own logic there. It was to avoid more fighting between us, so we could focus elsewhere. You, with any neighbor to the right, and me to keep Mjmd under control. You ended up doing nothing but sitting there hoping nuclear hellfire would be tossed back and forth and be able to get out of it ahead? Civac was taking the same/less amount of time per turn as ME.

The 3-way pile on shoved my chances down from a solid 30%+ to less than 5. Then Gavagai's constant bs kept me having to whip which kept me so far behind tech wise that i got out teched by EVERYONE.


I dont believe you would have had to worry once Mjmd was taken care of/knocked down. Zulu was (and showed it) never going to trust his Ottoman border even with Ginger pulling a Ginger. They were going to be locked into Forever war, or at the VERY least, you would have a very good ally in Civac vs zulu while i most likely shoved thousands of units into a meat grinder in Mjmd.

You could have also just cancelled OB if you saw me moving units thru.

The logic of " It's not my job to rein in a runaway if it doesn't improve my victory chances. " If everyone has that exact thought, whomever gets ahead first auto-wins. Reining in a runaway (with my help, because i was suggesting it forever) would have improved your victory chances from 0%, to SOMETHING imo.


I felt we could have been just as friendly towards each other as Zulu/Mjmd were to each other. I saw that towards the later part of the game (especially getting more and more pissed looking at the EP spending) and wondering wow, if Zulu can be so friendly with the Absolute Obvious Clear Frontrunner. Why couldnt Nauf with me?


In closing.


Fk Gavagai

Nah, but kinda. I swear he ruins more of my games than ive ruined others. Ok, he hasnt, but thats only cuz ive played 30+ at this point.