[spoilers] pindicator goes off the deep end

[Ceiliazul]

Wow, you took Novice's 'Peddler' thead to heart! Be careful selling too much though, you're running the risk of making Rego AND Gaspadore angry with you.

[T-hawk]

Heh, I just brought up that link for amusement, didn't expect it to actually influence the course of things here. Exploit's conversion rates aren't necessarily correct or authoritative of course. But at any rate, Exploit hardly ever posted in Pitboss 3 and got eliminated pretty early, so we'll never know how the "Tech Peddler" would have worked out.

[pindicator]

Oh, I took that to heart. And Gaspadore is getting a steal of a deal, even by Tech Peddlar standards. We've settled on 550g and he loans an additional 100g that I repay after I get to nationalism. (I told him what the gold was for.)

I think we've hit a new low in RB for selling units: 1,000 hammers for 550g. But with that plus the loan of 100g, plus the 200g Rego is loaning me (uh, i told him it was for Divine Right, which it was originally until he said he was going to race me to Taj), well this plus a bit of wealth builds will get us Nationalism by the end of t112. Edit: This is incorrect; when I went back through our conversations I never specified what the loan was for. I did intend to use it on DR until he told me we were racing for Taj.

How close is that line now?

[pindicator]

Turn 108

I got a hold of Commodore and we finalized things last night. So the navy is again amassing, but this time they are headed out for coin instead of nationality. Commodore wanted to know the time table so I whipped this up for him last night:



Then he let slip that he would like the troops sent to Zul'Aman. That will take longer, so I'll have everything gifted to him by t114. I had a feeling that if I told him what the gold was going to be used for then he would be more inclined to be generous, so I was able to talk them up to 650g and me repaying 100g after I reach Nationalism. Commodore in return told me that the mercenaries would be used to "put in a land claim between Yuri and Rego". Here is the last of that conversation:

Commodore's email:

[COLOR="Sienna"]Hey Pindicator,

I think we're pretty close to a deal here. The sales are looking fairly good and the geopolitics are happening. Only trouble is that our game plan calls for Guilds at a certain point for speedier grocers, extra merchants in our GP farm, and then snowballing. Don't believe the press, we're not just about mayhem. The 500 was what we could afford for right now, but if we shake loose a couple wealth builds we can do 550 right now, or, conversely, 650 as soon as we finish up Guilds.

That really would have made a different game to have pushed out copper that early, but wishes, horses, beggars, etc. We are going to do our utmost to make it more interesting still and give those poor berserks something interesting to do.[/COLOR]

Our chat:

me: hey sir

Commodore: Hey Pin, actually about to send the reply, sec.

me: cool, i finally got a chance to play the turn

Commodore: On the GW, we didn't have a specific plan, but we figured you'd be in on that.

me: i've been thinking it, but this map seems so hammer starved it's hard to prioritize it

Commodore: Hey, mind sending us a UI-stripped shot of your current flaming goods-depot locations? We can send along similar stripped shots to show you our ideal Shipping and Receiving loacations.

me: cool, can do

might as well let you know what the gold is gonna be used for, figure you deserve that

Commodore: Well, it's odd, because it's hammer starved, but also due to toroid, we're commerce hungry too. :P

me: yeah, a slower moving game for sure

anyway, rego let slip he is aiming for Taj

i want to keep him from it

that's why the fire sale

Commodore: Aha, you near enough to give him a run?

me: only if i can run 100% to get to Nationalism

Commodore: Really, the big deal is to stop him from sandbagging to Communism or something equally insane.

me: yeah, i think Taj will give him the means to get to sci method before we can get lib though

communism is the big treat here though

Commodore: Undoubtedly.

me: and if i get taj then i will push to lib so he has to take it

Commodore: Exactly.

me: how far away are you from guilds?

Commodore: 3 turns at 100%

So one more turn gold saving, then boom.

me: sounds chaotic

Commodore: Other option is us tossing you 650, you tossing back 100 after hitting Nationalism.

me: i could do that

Commodore: Chaotic is our theme, I think.

me: with 650g i can race to it but i need to add in some wealth builds

Commodore: We trolls, mon.

me: lol, well said

Commodore: Never did manage to make the Common Cold avatar, I see.

me: every time i try to upload one it says wrong file type... no matter the file type

Commodore: Weird

Think Geek is the source.

me: i'll give it another shot tonight afte the turn

Commodore: Oh, best to work if we offer gold on our turn, so the transfer is hidden from Rego (the one who checks these things)

Yuri, obviously, doesn't even check power graphs.

me: yeah, at least until it's too late

btw, i'd rather keep guessing which of yuri or rego you're going after

if that makes sense

Commodore: I figured.

me: either way someone's going to be upset with me

plus i'm a pretty bad liar if i'm directly asked

Commodore: Plausible deniability, plus, we're known mayhemists.

Right. Well, you can tell them we're gunning for the other one.

me: lol, i'll try

i'm taking a look at logistics right now

Commodore: That's actually why I want to look at path and save the transfer at first, too.

Our logistics are a nightmare, I think Gaspar just moves our galleys around randomly.

me: oh, i'm at the point where unless it's for something important (like the war) i don't plan; it's too much work otherwise

the war was nuts for logistics

but whipping and staging an army within 4 turns was fun

Commodore: Well, it was a really war then.

me: okay, i can get them to your territory in 5 turns

Commodore: Tactics are for amateurs, logistics are for professionals.

me: wait, i can only get 7 galleys

#8 will take 7 turns

Commodore: Which part of our territory? We might be able to send a helper galley.

me: main island, near to yuri

Commodore: Need to see the naked map, I'll fiddle around with what needs to go there.

me: of course, if i gift on turn 5 then yuri will see it

i'd be coming through his lands, since the zerkers are mostly there still

Commodore: Right, so maybe 6...like I said, let me look.

We're mayhemic enough, we might whip a settler to get you a closer depot.

me: hmmm, ok

oh, let me see if i can get them to malaka'jin sooner

most the zerkers are in the gifted cities, or a while back

no, malaka is 7 turns

Commodore: Right. Okay, just send them through Yuri for now, I'll get better directions once I stitch the maps.

me: ok, what do ou want pics of again?

Commodore: Basically, naked maps of the route from your galleys to our lands.

me: ok, i have a good amount of the area mapped out, but if you can supply screenshots of what you have of yuri then we can get a more optimal route

Commodore: We know Yuri's land pretty good, so will do

I'll stitch and send.

me: cool. for the gold, you'll just send until we hit 650 total? then after i hit natlism i will give you the 100 the next turn

Commodore: Yeah, that'll work.

me: cool

ok, picture time

Commodore: I'll keep a tally in the in-game chat.

me: is there a keyboard command to get rid of city views?

Commodore: Hum. Alt i for everything else.

me: ok, i'll doctor out the builds then
9 minutes

me: here it comes

looks like 6 turns

Commodore: Cool, I'll get you the return picture next turn.

me: does the time table look good?

Commodore: Looks decent, although actually with either target we'd be staging from the north, Zul'Amanish

me: ok, i can go through the north then

Commodore: Danke, the guy who is not the guy who asks won't know what hit him.



me: hmmm... zul'aman will be t114 i think

Commodore: Yeah, that was my mark one eyeball.

We actually want to put a land claim in between Rego and Yuri to the NW of Zul'Aman, might have you move one more turn there.

me: fair enough

Commodore: Excellent, pleasure doing business with you. I'll send along our own map version to stitch the logistics together.

For now, it's 1:20 here in CST, bedtime.

Have a good holiday, Pindicator.

me: sounds like bedtime

you too commodore! enjoyt he weekend

In the end I decided I better go 100% for the full 5 turns instead of figuring it out to as near the beaker as possible. So with 1150g at my disposal I will need to run wealth in cities so my expenses are not over 230g on any one turn. I started that this turn, trying to pick cities that weren't building buddhist buildings or ones that had micro set up for getting missionaries built for the empire:



In the meantime, I had to nearly empty my border cities with Yuri. This caused some unhappiness in NLRA, but we were thinking about whipping the Forbidden Palace there, so I figured it was time to whip.



I also whipped a theater in NRA, to the south. We are making progress on the culture! At least, the percentages are shifting in the right direction. A buddhist missionary will arrive in NLRA next turn and we'll get some more culture up. I've been tracking the culture change over the last few turns:



At least things are headed in the right direction there!

Then this morning I had a few more emails:

From Yuri:

[COLOR="Orange"]Hey Pindicator,

I gifted you a Settler and a Worker this turn. I believe this
concludes the units gifting part of our agreement, but please let me
know if I missed anything

Cheers
Trainee captain yuris125[/COLOR]

I sent a nice reply back:

[COLOR="Plum"]Hi Yuri!

That indeed concludes the units gifting portion of our agreement. I noticed that i gifted the fur a bit prematurely: it still is under your culture's control so you are receiving my mainland fur instead. I think i can get by until the deal is past the 10-turn mark, so we shiuld be good there. With how smoothly everything has gone, i wouldn't mind adding length to the NAP we put in place. Let me know if you are interested in this.

Happy Holidays!
Pindicator[/COLOR]

I figure extending the NAP is to my advantage. More importantly, it will help to know whether or not Yuri wants the NAP extended.

And then last night I had asked Rego if he had thought about us reaching an arrangement about the Taj. His answer was not surprising:

[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Well, I guess I can't think of any deals that would work out. The Taj is pretty important to me too, and it's a big part of my short to medium term strategy. I don't plan on sandbagging Liberalism really (not to mention the risk of one of the other players getting it even if we deal), so I think I'll have to pass on the Taj / lib deal, unless we can come up with something else

your mom.[/COLOR]

At least I've given myself the best chance for winning the Taj race. I had to give an arm and a leg to do it... but I think I have a good shot at it. Today I have a little time in the morning, so I'm going to figure out where the Taj is going to be built (New Deal or FAP), and how fast I can build it.


Edit: Whipping wonders gets a -50% penalty, right? So if I whip Taj I'll be getting 13 per whip (+50% for math, -50% for wonder)? And then we add the +200% (25% forge, 25% org rel, 50% Ind, 100% marble)? So each population would get me 39 hammers into Taj?

[Ceiliazul]

Edit: Whipping wonders gets a -50% penalty, right? So if I whip Taj I'll be getting 13 per whip (+50% for math, -50% for wonder)? And then we add the +200% (25% forge, 25% org rel, 50% Ind, 100% marble)? So each population would get me 39 hammers into Taj?[/i]

Whips are worth 20h regardless of math. (Math is for chops only) I believe Taj includes a 50% penalty, so each pop will be worth 10 base hammers. After that, other multipliers kick in, such as IND, forge and OB.

[oledavy]

SevenSpirits awhile ago in one of our PB6 Threads:

It's not additive with anything else. Basically the whole (20h*pop) gets multiplied by a fraction before anything else happens to it. It isn't even additive with the Kremlin discount.

National wonders:
Early ones are 2/3 efficient. Late ones (anything from the Constitution column onward) are 1/2. Moai Statues is also 1/2, bizarrely.

World wonders:
Early ones are 1/2. Late ones (anything from the Constitution column onward) are 1/3. Apostolic Palace, UN, and Space Elevator are 1/4. Cristo Rendentor is only 1/2, bizarrely.

Example: if you whip the Statue of Liberty for 6 pop with copper and a forge but no other multipliers, you get 6*20 = 120, 120 / 3 = 40, 40 * 225% = 90h.

Don't whip wonders.

[pindicator]

Thanks for the info!

I was able to figure an eta on the Taj for finishing on turn 115.

So t109 is done and Rego picked up Philosophy as expected. He also birthed another Great Sci; at least he didn't grab a great engineer. I'd have no chance if that happened. This also means he can't kick off a 2nd golden age, another good sign.

I was afraid he would use one of his Great Scientists to bulb Philo and grab Nationalism with Liberalism. But I looked up the GS bulb preferences and found his GS would go after Printing Press. So he manually researched Philosophy. Rego did burn through 321 gold at 100% science, so it doesn't look like he's using any wealth builds. If he seriously goes after Nationalism (or Liberalism) then maybe he can get 2 turns of max research... but i'd call that doubtful.

This is all very promising.

But.

Gaspadore did not send gold this last turn. I sent him an email saying they need to send 250g next turn, and 200g on t111 & t112 for the deal to work.

I'm going to build the Taj in FAP, as that gives me the fastest build time. FAP will finish Parthenon on t110. One-turn a monestary on t111. Then I thank my stars that I did not finish my military builds once the war was over, because I have a 40/46 berserker in FAP's queue (it last put hammers into the build on t103 so there shouldn't be any hammer degredation). On t112 I whip the berserker and end up getting 41 hammers of overflow out of that. This will get me to 261/469 hammers in Taj by t115; I'll then 7-pop whip the Taj that turn. Except, I have to steal CWA's crab and hire an engineer to get exactly enough food to reach size 14 by t115, as well as enough hammers to get within the 210 needed for a 7-pop whip. This is going to delay my next Great Person out of CWA, but if it works it will be worth it.

So Taj in 5 turns. Will it be fast enough?

[pindicator]

I don't know what's going on with team gaspadore, but the deal is now off. No cash again on t110 despite telling them they had to give me the funds immediately in order for it to work.



There goes Taj.




Edit: Sent my frustration to them thusly

Hi guys,
Once again no gold. Dunno if we're just mixing signals here or if you've backed out and decided not to tell me. Either way, the deal is now off. It was pivotal I receive gold this turn and without it there's no reason for me to do this deal.

Hope we can work together better next time,
pin

[pindicator]

Well, I caught Gaspar on chat earlier and he swore he sent the gold. I wonder who he sent it to, because it didn't go to me.

I also found out that we're not quite past the point of no return. I got 393 beakers of overflow into Nationalism. If I add a couple more Wealth builds then I can run 60% science and burn through the rest of my 47 gold this turn. This will get me 300 raw beakers, (360 adjusted) into Nationalism. 100% gets me 500 beakers (600 adjusted) into Nationalism. 393 + 360 + 600 + 600 = 1953, and Nationalism is 1857 beakers. So, I am sending a couple of gold requests to Gaspar & Commodore: 550g, 300g, and 250g. This way if they did mistakenly send gold to someone else (oh please not rego!) then they can still get gold to me. The original plan was for them to send me to the gold to minimize other people detecting it, but at this point I just need to make sure i get it.

I just got t110 tonight, and it looks like Rego is up to 516 gold and making 193 per turn. I think at minimum he can get Nationalism in 3 turns, only if he has a lot of overflow from Philosophy, but 4 or 5 is far more likely. I can get Nationalism in 3 turns... but only if I can get that gold next turn.

So, time to play the turn.

[pindicator]

Rego has got me really, really upset with him. I'll let lurkers judge if I have a case, or if I'm just biased because he's trying to get to Taj.

About a week ago we had this chat, where I had just asked him for a 200g loan to help me through Divine Right:

Pindicator: no, i'd still want it. i'm hoping to get my econ going again with Spiral

Regoarrarr: oh
teching dr?

Pindicator: i know, kind of unconventional

Regoarrarr: nah
i did the same thing in '17

Pindicator: what i should have done is save the great prophet and use it on DR
got itchy fingers and pulled it off on theo when i could have stayed flexible

Regoarrarr: so 200g?
any land points this turn?

Pindicator: yeah, sorry. 20 things going on at once here

Regoarrarr: no prob

Pindicator: 4 pts for gasp
for ze land
i had 11 pts in land and 4 pop last turn
what's the eta on liberalism?

Regoarrarr: not sure

Pindicator: guess i'll have to go that way after DR to keep you at least a little honest

Regoarrarr: is that anyway to treat the guy givin you 200g?

Pindicator: you'll still be able to grab something decent off it

Regoarrarr: yeah i understand

Pindicator: trying to learn my lesson from letting you cherry pick with the oracle

Regoarrarr: trade world maps?

Pindicator: sure

Regoarrarr: ok trade offered

Pindicator: cool

Regoarrarr: 7 pop for you?

Pindicator: 4 pop & 11 land pts

Regoarrarr: so i'm fine with just interest free

Pindicator: really? that's very nice of you

Regoarrarr: what about a non compete on liberalism and/or the taj

Pindicator: in exchange for the loan? yikes, that makes me think i should just chug along

Regoarrarr: just throwing things out
are you thinking of going for either of those?
i'm fine if you are - i don't feel like i "deserve" them or have to have them

Pindicator: i was thinking along the lines of galleys since i have an abundance
Taj would be nice, it has a nice synnergy with MoM

Regoarrarr: but would prefer that if we are going to race for them then we be upfront about it
(not saying that you aren't)

Pindicator: i dunno, race doesn't seem like the right word. i mean, i'm resigned to you getting liberalism at this point
but if i can keep you from picking up physics with it then i'd prefer to

Regoarrarr: yeah
that's fine
so let's race for taj then

Pindicator: hard to imagine me winning that one
hmmm.... just had a thought
what if i don't tech liberalism in exchange for you letting me have Taj?

Regoarrarr: save otw

as for that deal let me think about it
but i lean towards not taking you up on that

Pindicator: ok

Regoarrarr: btw i decided to delay philo

Pindicator: well, i'll give us both some time to ponder. roommates want me to get a drink with them

Regoarrarr: okay
ttyl

Pindicator: why?
out of curiosity

Regoarrarr: i have one city that doesn't have a religion
if i founded it this turn
it would found there (i think)

Pindicator: yeah, almost guaranteed to i believe

Regoarrarr: but it has a missionary ready to spread next turn
and then it would go somewhere else

Pindicator: makes sense

At the start of the conversation I was heading towards DR and Spiral Minaret. But in the middle of the conversation we talk about having to race if we don't come up with an agreeable deal for a non-compete. So does he honestly expect me to race to Taj by way of Divine Right? I'm sorry Rego, but that's a joke. It's a joke that you agreed to such a deal in the first place, and now you're upset because you made a bad decision. I guess that part of it makes sense.

No, he gave me the gold loan because he was confident he would win the race. Now he is not so confident. Why is he not confident? He can see that large pile of gold I had to request from Gaspar & Commodore. Dammit, if they hadn't been so inept in sending me gold on time and in the right amounts this may not have even come up.

So Rego and I had this conversation just now:

Regoarrarr: hey

Pindicator: hiya

Regoarrarr: turn in a bit

Pindicator: cool

Regoarrarr: so i thought you were teching d right with my 200g?

Pindicator: originally,b ut then i thought i was going to give it the ole college try, right?

Regoarrarr: for taj?

Pindicator: yeah

Regoarrarr: well i guess i don't mind racing
but i feel kind of weird giving you 200g to try and beat me with

Pindicator: heh, i thought it was odd too. i remember saying something like if there was a stipulation of staying away from taj then you should keep it

Regoarrarr: hmm i don't remember that
but whatever
i don't want to make a big deal abou tit

Pindicator: well, i don't want bad feelings over it either. Tell you what, if by some miracle i beat you to Taj I'll pay you back an extra 100g interest

Regoarrarr: gasp still on guilsd?

Pindicator: yeah, last turn it was down to 11 turns... he must be running a number of specialists

Regoarrarr: probably
yuri on machinery due in 1

Pindicator: oh, btw
i'm starting to cycle some great builds here and there

Regoarrarr: ?

Pindicator: dunno when i'll cash that in exactly but probably in the next 15t or so
just in case you want to throw some turns into it

Regoarrarr: great wall?

Pindicator: great wall builds i mean

Regoarrarr: ah
that makes a lot more sense ;-)
i wish you'd have let me know about the parthenon

Pindicator: heh
were you on that too?

Regoarrarr: no
but i'd have liked the fail gold

Pindicator: ah, sorry. we haven't been catching each other too much lately on chat

Regoarrarr: yeah
stupid christmas

Pindicator: :D
well, feel free to sink some turns into Zeus as well
although i'll probably finish Great Wall before that

Regoarrarr: so it turns out i'm working on an important tech
can i borrow 200g?

Pindicator: tell you what, if it's gonna be a big deal then just request it back

Regoarrarr: well shoot man
how'd we end up like this?

Pindicator: i dunno, but i thought it was odd and said so at the time. i can hunt for the conversation if you want\
maybe we misunderstood each other
by my recollection it was a conversation where i started out talking about DR, you asked about Taj, and then we ended saying we were going to race cause we couldn't find sufficient compensation

Regoarrarr: last i saw was from dec 22 starting at 9:04pm
what's the eta on liberalism?

me: not sure
Pindicator: guess i'll have to go that way after DR to keep you at least a little honest
me: is that anyway to treat the guy givin you 200g?
Pindicator: you'll still be able to grab something decent off it

Pindicator: yeah, then later on

Regoarrarr: what about a non compete on liberalism and/or the taj
me: in exchange for the loan? yikes, that makes me think i should just chug along

Regoarrarr: right
i guess i never saw where you said you were going to go after anything but DR

Pindicator: i still don't see how it's much of a race; you're gonna beat me to it

Regoarrarr: if i had popped an engineer last turn sure i'd feel great about it
in any case, no hard feelings on my side
i'm sure it was just a misunderstanding like you said
email / chat are obviously hard to get nuances and such
but if you're okay with it, i would like to request my 200g back

Pindicator: well, i can't say i like it, but i understand it.
it must be closer than i thought

Regoarrarr: well for all i know you've got an engineer on the way
not to mention you're industrious

Pindicator: well, you got me on industrious, but i think i am 7 turns away from a great person at best. have to recheck those numbers
maybe still 6, but i had to shuffle things around and lost a couple spec/turns
and even then, a GE is a long shot

Regoarrarr: hey cool now that i have your world map
i can see what yuri is building in many cities
well at least 2
wealth inhuamanga and forge in vitcos
heh i can even see his research rate and such
wow you got 3 cities on his mainland!
well done!

Pindicator: 4
no wait, 3
4 gifts
3 on the mainland

Regoarrarr: nlrb the other one?

Pindicator: yeah

Regoarrarr: that's a nice city

Pindicator: i'm starting to peel away at some culture
yeah, NLRA, NLRB, and sort of NRA are good
NIRA is a clunker

Regoarrarr: yeah
if it can get that copper
ok i gotta head to bed
save otw
we'll have to talk c&d tomorrow

Pindicator: cool, have a good night

Regoarrarr: if you're not too mad at me ;-)

Pindicator: yeah, i have some major Qs there
oh, just a wee bit
i'll get over it

I'm very upset at him, but I'm trying to see how that means I don't have the right to give him back the gold he is requesting back as a loan. (A loan with no official limits put in at the time it was given, but a loan none-the-less.) I mean, I didn't ever say what the gold was for, even in the original request email:

[COLOR="Plum"][i]Mr Rego of the Arr Arrs,
Don't suppose we could work out a gold loan next turn? It'd be super if i could get 200g next turn, either in exchange for some nav galleys or as a loan.

Indicator of pins since 2001

Pindicator[/COLOR]

[/i]

No, he made the assumption and yes, I played off that assumption, just like I played the assumption he made that his tech lead was big enough that I wouldn't mount a serious challenge.

I'm really tempted to decline his 200g request. I'll have to think on it. After all, I never said I would accept it, if we're going to use unwritten assumptions in our negotiations.

Hah, and opening the save I see he's poured 100% research into what has to be Nationalism (edit: also possible is liberalism). If he did that then I bet he needs me to give him that 200g this turn in order for him to finish Nationalism in 2. Well, I guess I could just give him that gold a turn later and still live up to my end of the deal.