[SPOILERS] ARRR Ye Scurvy Dogs! Hannah the Irin

[DaveV]

Extra-tall wall of text

That's what the diplomats like to call a "frank" discussion . Several concerns:

- any joint attack would have to be *very* well coordinated: shared maps/screenshots, forces from each participant explicitly stated in advance, clearly defined objectives, explicit arrangements for sharing any gains. If someone rats you out to Thoth, he'll know exactly what's coming, but if you have a traitor in your alliance, it's probably game over already.

- naval units are a good investment for you: just be aware that Thoth's Cultists can sink them if you leave them within striking distance. Blockade would hurt him and be helpful to you, but the primary goal is to preserve your forces. Ruling the seas is your only long-term defense.

- as you've said repeatedly, you're extremely vulnerable to a counter-strike from Thoth. The ideal war plan from your perspective would be to have the other coalition members attack first and draw away Thoth's forces, so you don't lose half your empire to Thoth in the first few turns of the war.

- get some ironclad guarantees that the 4-on-1 won't be followed by a 3-on-1 with you on the short end. Maybe you should pick a partner and secretly arrange for a 2-on-2 following the alliance war?

- it's going to be very difficult to make this work as a surprise attack. If there are a bunch of NAPs all expiring at the same time, and no one wants to renew, Thoth will certainly smell an attack coming. That's why good planning for the first few turns of war is so crucial.

[Mardoc]

any joint attack would have to be *very* well coordinated: shared maps/screenshots, forces from each participant explicitly stated in advance, clearly defined objectives, explicit arrangements for sharing any gains. If someone rats you out to Thoth, he'll know exactly what's coming, but if you have a traitor in your alliance, it's probably game over already.

Yes, this was ultimately what led me to decide that that attack isn't happening now. We're still in the 'wouldn't it be nice?' stage of things. Frankly, I only give it a 50% chance of coming off at all - but even if we can work all that out, we're not going to do so in the next 20 turns! If I had brought up my concerns, and gotten a response of 'we're hitting him on T140 with 20 Pyre Zombies, 10 Monks...what can you add to that?' then signing on would have been a lot easier.

That's the most striking piece about that wall of text. It's all motivations, theory, arguments - not a single detail, and barely any information. It almost feels like a werewolf game here. Again, if I'd gotten the above, and it was followed by 'and if you send a Hawk here, you'll see the forces lining up', I'd have felt a lot better about this.

- naval units are a good investment for you: just be aware that Thoth's Cultists can sink them if you leave them within striking distance. Blockade would hurt him and be helpful to you, but the primary goal is to preserve your forces. Ruling the seas is your only long-term defense.

Naval warfare, even more so than land warfare, appears to be entirely about the initiative, at least in the presence of Cultists. 75% damage is just so big. A speed advantage ought to help here, but mostly it's going to have to be lots of naval Hawks. I'm still annoyed that I can't put a Hawk on a Hunter on a boat; it'll make flank attacks more difficult, since I'll have to stay within recon range.

But yes, I have to build a force capable of ruling the seas regardless of anything else. 15 of my 17 cities will be coastal, and any coastal city can be crushed by an amphibious assault backed up by Cultists.

Conversely, once I manage that, I can declare that the oceans belong to me now . And take the Heron Throne/copper city for my own!

What I'd like as my spoils of war, assuming victory (you know, cause that'll be so easy to accomplish) are the remnants area and the west coast (gold/treaty city, copper city, maybe another one or two).

- as you've said repeatedly, you're extremely vulnerable to a counter-strike from Thoth. The ideal war plan from your perspective would be to have the other coalition members attack first and draw away Thoth's forces, so you don't lose half your empire to Thoth in the first few turns of the war.

Hmm, I like that idea. If I can figure out how to sell it to the others, anyway.

- get some ironclad guarantees that the 4-on-1 won't be followed by a 3-on-1 with you on the short end. Maybe you should pick a partner and secretly arrange for a 2-on-2 following the alliance war?

Maybe Irgy would be happy to carve up the Elohim in the aftermath . Not exactly something I can plot ahead of getting my direct contact with him. You've got a very strong point, though, about the secondary risk to this plan - it entails everyone else having a strong, experienced army at my border if it works. And Thoth with a strong, experienced army at my border if it fails.

- it's going to be very difficult to make this work as a surprise attack. If there are a bunch of NAPs all expiring at the same time, and no one wants to renew, Thoth will certainly smell an attack coming. That's why good planning for the first few turns of war is so crucial.

Agreed - I'm convinced this is why Thoth was so pushy about both getting the NAP renewal signed, and on making sure that his neighbors' NAPs ended at different times. He knows he's a dogpile target, and wants to ensure it doesn't happen. We can still hit him, but there's probably no way to ensure surprise.

Given how fast I've responded to him in the past, I wouldn't be surprised if he deduced there was plotting, just from my hesitation.

[Mardoc]

Wrong religion, buddy:



I finally finished exploring the island:



Yay for an extra sugar, eventually. I tested a cove on Pearls, and the button doesn't even show up for cove founding, despite the location being otherwise perfectly legal . I'm debating if that makes this dotmap worth replacing with the previous one, repeated below. Right now, I think the alternate dotmap is slightly stronger since it gains the fish and pearls at the cost of two tiles overlap, and has the same number of coves.


MafiaBoy finishes its Siege Workshop, but goes on to a library instead of chariot due to the NAP. Curador also finishes a Siege Workshop and starts a workboat for Comrade in a couple turns. I'm considering a run for the Great Library, even though I don't intend many specialists and it only grants 1 free sage, just because it's cheap with Marble and it might annoy Thoth for me to take it. Great Sage points might be handy, too. I need the libraries anyway, so I'll think about this again in a couple turns.

I'm getting close to saturated on OO; I think I will produce one, maybe two more rounds of Cultists from Phoenix/Phiber Optik, then switch them both to Sea Havens and Lighthouses. The alternate option is to pull a Settler from each of these, to really speed my conquest of the island; they're my only cities at the happiness cap, so they are the best candidates for settler spam. I think I might go with this option, actually; the sooner I'm started on the island, the sooner those cities are full grown and useful.

Captain Crunch takes a brief break from worker spam to grow into its new Sugar-allowed size, and then I'll go for a Settler here.

[Mardoc]

I've finally gotten enough cultists for every city to have culture! Therefore the ones in production will be the end for now, until I have more cities or a need to OOize Captain Crunch and MafiaBoy. Phoenix and Phiber Optik will be putting up Sea Havens and lighthouses, festivals, etc. And knocking out some Caravels once I have Optics. Captain Crunch had a spread of Ashen Veil this turn, so I will definitely have that option later on.

At the end of the turn, Council of Esus came in to an appropriate city: MafiaBoy. I think I may even build a Pagan Temple and hire another Priest in Phiber Optik to speed the acquisition of Nox Noctis. I'm debating if I spend the money to spread it around now, or wait until Nox Noctis is closer, and I'm thinking I should wait - I get very little benefit from having Esus in a city until I have the shrine, without switching state religions.

And, now that my empire's gotten to a stable point, I need to spend some time figuring out the optimal growth path from here, probably will do that tomorrow. I need a tech path and a settling plan, how to most quickly get my island under control and contributing, get my current cities grown up, and so on.

[DaveV]

I've finally gotten enough cultists for every city to have culture! Therefore the ones in production will be the end for now...

Are you not planning to build a few extras for defense? It's often a good plan to build priests early, since they gain pretty decent passive XP.

[Mardoc]

Well, the last time around I needed a plan, it worked pretty well to go backward from my goals to my capabilities, and prioritize appropriately. At least from my perspective.

So, what are my goals?
- Settle the last of my sites; need 7 settlers, probably 4-5 (at minimum) more workers, 18 workboats, 7 garritroopers, at least one Spring Adept, and enough force to clear the island. The trireme can work as a ferry, but I probably want to supplement it.

- Contact Irgy; need a boat and some time

- Circumnavigate; need Optics, a boat or two, and some time. Probably best to combine this with Irgy contact and scouting the north

- Grow my cities - I want lighthouses, sea havens, more luxuries, libraries, a smattering of variety and spread out training buildings, festivals and public baths...

- Get Nox Noctis - current ETA: T170. How important is this to boost? Well, I might well be warring on T170; it would be nice to have a few turns of invisibilty prior to that. It's also potentially a nice econ boost, +1 commerce for every 25 gold spent.

(aside: if I can get to a point of really, truly, trusting someone, maybe it'd be worth going for the Impersonate Leader gambit? Sure kill on Thoth...)

- Get Necronomicon - current ETA: never. Still, with at least 8 OO cities in the world known about already, and a plan on my part to add ~10 more, it'd be a nice econ boost. An extra water mana is small, but nice to have anyway. Probably I should go for it, although after Nox Noctis.

- Build an army. Currently last priority, everything else will make this go faster later. OO and chariots, with a smattering of collateral if I can.

- Wonders? Great Library is cheap, with marble. Great Lighthouse is expensive, but worth 30+ gold/turn, if if all trade routes are internal. Bone Palace - I do have marble, and a golden age would be nice. Not sure it should be a priority, though. Catacomb Libralus - nah, 600 hammers is too much when mages are just a supplement to my army. Tower of Complacency? Quite possibly a very nice choice, but not the highest priority for the moment. Probably would go best somewhere like Captain Crunch post-Lighthouse, or another city with a lot of food and coastline, that I can eventually turn into a GPP farm in addition to its commerce.

- National Wonders Well, I need a Dereptus, Heroic and National Epics at the least. Probably Dereptus in Captain Crunch, Heroic epic in either Phiber Optik or Phoenix, National Epic in my eventual GPP-farm after the Tower of Complacency goes up. Honestly, I think the city I planted on top of the corn in the SW might be the best place for this; 3 coves and ~10 ocean, with lighthouse, would be a lot of food. It has a little bit of production from 3 hills and the 3 coves, enough to knock out some buildings and wonders, but not really enough that I'd miss it as a production city.

So, given all that, what makes sense as a tech path? Well, I finally have some excess production available to sink into boats. Contact with Irgy would get me more better trade routes, more confidence on war plans, and possibly a luxury or two. I might well go Optics next. Hunting is needed for Hawks, but also for Ivory. Sanitation is worth 3 happy on its own for any city with spare hammers. Currency is worth an extra trade route/city, but probably not worth doing until I have Irgy contact. KoTE will get me better land, and I need to start some Adepts anyway.

I'm thinking something like KoTE -> Hunting -> Optics -> Sanitation -> Currency, then reevaluate and think about military techs as well; fanaticism, Sorcery (and what I want to make my node; probably Fire). I need to start training some Adepts if I want any hope of mages by T170. And Dave's got a point that Cultists, as well, ought to be an early production item. I would like to stick an Air adept on my exploring ships, which is why KoTE needs to come before Optics.

What makes sense from a production standpoint? I still need to focus horizontal growth for the moment, I think. Every city not on a market/elder council needs to be working on something that will hasten either contact or settling. That means settlers, workers, workboats, island troops, and transports. And cultists. If I really bend my empire this direction, it might be reasonable to expect I at least have all my cities settled in 20 turns.

Once I manage that, then a period of infrastructure, getting all cities to have Market/Elder Council/Temple of Overlords/Sea Haven/Lighthouse/Library/Selected military buildings/selected wonders and nat. wonders. Followed by an intense period of military production.

[Mardoc]

Well, Thoth built himself a shiny new Bone Palace last turn, as predicted by Irgy. I start on settlers in Captain Crunch and Phoenix; their escorts, transports, etc, are to be provided by my newer cities. Pick up Knowledge of the Ether this turn, so next turn has to be a savings turn.

I think I want, for exploration, three Caravels with Fair Winds adepts on board. One to head straight west for circumnavigation, one to head north along the coast (never ending turn inside borders, but scouting Thoth and Nyktorion's land), one to head across the bay to Irgy in case circumnavigation takes too long. Caravels, not Pirates, for the improved sight and ability to both explore inside borders and get contact.

[Mardoc]

[COLOR="Yellow"]
Congrats on your own founding of CoE.

I've had a few ideas about the undercouncil that you might find to our mutual benefit.


I can hit Deception and swap to the Undercouncil by turn 134 (maybe 135/136 at the latest). I can't do it any earlier as I have some civic swaps planned for t124, but once there are two people in Undercouncil some interesting possibilites crop up.

Obviously having access to smugglers ports would be a huge boon to your seafaring nation. I'm interested in the GS and the cheap Gambling Houses (there should really be a "cheap prostitutes" resolution as well.....but so it goes. ).

Can we work out a deal for voting ourselves some nice goodies?

I'd offer to throw in a "no compete" for GG but it wouldn't be worth much as I don't think I get free access to CoE as the second finisher. [/COLOR]

Too tired to think about the implications here, but at the moment I'm thinking I should agree to all the Undercouncil stuff. Thoth seems to think it's a no-brainer that I should go for Gibbon, which makes me wonder if it's worth giving up for a while the ability to train cultists? Gotta think about that one.

Also, if I'm going Undercouncil anyway for a free GS+, I ought to consider what else I should switch to simultaneously, and make sure I have those civics unlocked.

[Mardoc]

I apologize for the sparse updates; real life's kept me pretty busy. Fortunately, not a lot has been happening in game, either.

Last turn, I did manage to frustrate myself with my insufficient savings. I was just about to turn on 100% gold, too, to rebuild them

I maybe should cease with the uncontrolled binary research and go for a stable rate that leaves me with a steady ~200ish in the bank. Especially if we start needing that cash to vote in Undercouncil goodies, too. And doubly especially once I have access to cheap Undercouncil gambling houses.


There have been a number of foreign civics changes:

Which prompted me to test how long civics swaps will take me, and right now I can still swap all 5 in one turn. So it's back to deciding what the ideal place is for me to be right now. Tentatively I'm thinking City States/Consumption/Slavery/Foreign Trade/Undercouncil. I could be persuaded to something else though. Here's my reasoning.

• I still have hardly any farms, and I still don't anticipate changing that short of a successful war against Thoth, so Aristocracy can go away without too much pain. The logical place to go is city states to save on maintenance; God King would probably shoot my expenses through the roof.
  
• Nationalism -> Religion or Consumption is less obviously necessary, but it would gain me +2 happy nearly everywhere, while Training Yards are an extremely low-priority building since they only unlock Swordsmen for me, not even Boarding Parties. Only consumption seems a reasonable alternative, if I research Currency; +20% Gold would be very nice, and I have markets everywhere to take advantage of that +1 happy
  
• Labor is more of a toughie; Military State could be quite handy, boosting military production, giving draftability, and free units to counteract the high upkeep. Apprenticeship would continue to give me XP, in an era where I'm planning on building Adepts and Cultists. Slavery of course gives me population rushing as an option; now that I can afford to build lighthouses and am getting close to done with settler spam, would give an alternate outlet for my food-rich cities.
  
• Economy is also a debate; stick with Agrarianism for the free food, or go to Conquest for XP and at the cost of halting growth most places anytime I train (but dramatically improved military production)? I certainly don't need both Slavery and Conquest, so a head to head: Taking Captain Crunch as an example, 26 food to grow, which gives me I think 20 hammers when I whip it away? If I build granaries and smokehouses, that would be significantly better than Conquest. Finally, there's the option of Foreign Trade, for +1 trade route everywhere, +1 more in coastal cities, but -10% gold. I'm not sure about this one, I think it would still be a profit, but it's not obviously so, especially since I'm sure it would run me out of foreign trade routes available again. It would decrease my civic upkeep costs, though.
  
• Undercouncil is easy - nearly free nice bonuses, including smugglers' ports, cheap gambling houses, a great scientist, or be unaffiliated and gain nothing?
  

Of course, to make these revolts, I need another tech or two - currency if I decide on Consumption (I'll want currency anyway eventually); Warfare if I want Conquest or Military State.

So really, I think I'm pretty set on City States. Religion vs. Nationalism vs. Consumption is a tad harder, but I think I'm leaning Consumption. Military State vs. Slavery vs. Apprenticeship is harder still. Tentatively I think Slavery wins out here for its flexibility, but that's very tentative. Finally, I think leaving Agrarianism makes sense, due to my non-reliance on farms anywhere but MafiaBoy, and Foreign Trade vs Conquest I think still comes down on the side of trade in a peaceful era.

Finally, some more discussion with Thoth:

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]I would be happy to work with you to gain some goodies. I haven't decided precisely when I'll revolt, but I ought to manage before T134.

I definitely want at least all of Secret Codes, Gambling Ring, Smuggling Ring, and Slave Trade. In terms of the order; probably it makes sense to do Secret Codes first, then Slaves, Smuggling, and Gambling. Nightwatch could also be worth doing, but lower priority. Do you know the precise mechanics? How often do we get to vote, how much money each resolution costs, etc? I would hate to miss an opportunity because I forgot to save up for it.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]
I'm not sure on the exact mechanics of the UnderCouncil. I think the votes happen every 10 turns but that's a WAG so don't count on it being accurate. I'll put a request out to my lurkers and see if any of them can provide details. In the meantime I'm aiming to keep ~200g on hand to deal with events/resolutions.

I hadn't really considered slaves, are they any good? I'd rate them lower priority than 27h gambling houses, but I may well be missing something.

(btw: the RNG is an asshat. See attached screenie from my start of t122)[/COLOR]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]
Slaves - well, I believe it's 30 gold to buy one, and he's either a half-efficiency worker or 10 hammers. Or, if you have a source of slaves, you can sell them for 10 gold. But I hadn't realized just how much Undercouncil saves on Gambling Houses, either. Quadruples?!?

I just had one of those for Leaves! Still, it could be worse, could be those damn goblins.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]
Gambling ring reduces the cost of Gambling houses by 75%. Very nice.

Slaves don't sound all that good to me, half speed workers (at full support costs) aren't very appealing. 30g-->10h isn't any better than cash rushing. I have no objection to enabling slave trade but I think we'll get more millage out of smugglers ports and gambling rings. How about Secret Codes-->Smuggling ring-->Gambling Ring and then slave trade?

Yeah, those goblins are annoying. The one saving grace about having Nature as a palace mana is being immune to that event.[/COLOR]

Finally, we had a chat last night. Not a lot of info, but Thoth was fishing to see if there had been plotting for a dogpile, and crowing that he'd managed to avert that for the time being. He's got an NAP with Nyktorion for T150, WarriorKnight T160, and me T170.

If you're interested, see inside the spoilers.

Charles: It looks like there will be peace in our time.
8:51 PM The CoW seems to have completely fallen apart.
8:53 PM me: there was a CoW? Or you mean in PBEM2?
8:54 PM Did I not notice something like Nyktorion declaring on WarriorKnight?
8:55 PM Charles: No FFH pbem III. I don't know for certain that there was an attempt to form one, but in every other game I've read up on, someone has tried to organise a dogpile.
AFAIK, Nyktorion is trying to get his economy up to speed and isn't interested in DOWing anyone right now.
8:56 PM WK was the obvious candidate to organize the dogpile, but he almost fell over himself in his hurry to extend our NAP once I resigned with you and Nyktorion.
8:57 PM me: I think that's the general consensus; admittedly your golden age makes me jealous, but I still think I've got a chance to outexpand you
Charles: I may have been a bit paranoid about the dogpile possibility, but better to be paranoid and alive than complacent and fighting off a 3vs1.
me: So did you manage to get everyone staggered NAP's again?
Charles: Yep.
8:58 PM t150 with nyk, t 160 with Wk, t170 with you. I'm keeping my hands untied with Irgy in case I spot a tasty coastal AV city to burn.
8:59 PM i suspect Nyk will be gunning for me with Death II mages come t150. I used a bit of "gunboat" diplomacy to help get the NAP.
me: Hmm. Maybe next time I should include an MDP exception
9:00 PM Don't really want to see you running over another civ, either
Charles: I don't have any offensives planned at the moment (at least not any more)
OTOH, if negotiations had failed.....
9:01 PM me: Yes, but you'd say that anyway, wouldn't you?
Diplo's not quite as bad as werewolf, but there's a bit of second-guessing
Charles: Depends on weather or not a confidentiality agreement was in place.
9:02 PM Yeah, I'm not entirely happy with the way I've done my diplo this game, but the results so far have been ok.
me: I generally like knowing secrets enough to promise I won't spread them around
Will keep this chat to myself if you want to spill something
9:03 PM Charles: I'll keep any confidentiality agreements I make, and won't ask anyone else to break one.
me: Of course, do keep that in mind in any future fishing attempts, I won't spill anyone else's secrets either
Charles: Hmmmm. No really cunning plans in the works other than building lots of nice shiny things.

9:04 PM I didn't really expect you to comment one way or the other as to weather or not a CoW attempt had been made.
Shiny things=Iron chariots.

9:06 PM me: gotta say that keeping an army does give you more options
especially if you're concerned about invasions
6 minutes
9:12 PM Charles: Indeed. Having a fat GNP is an invitation to invasion if you don't have a decent army.
"If you would have peace, then be thou prepared for war"
9:13 PM
9:14 PM me: of course, if you would have war, you should probably be prepared for war too
9:16 PM Charles: That too. But it goes against my builder nature. War is sometimes necessary, but it's often counter productive.

FFH 2 spoilers and general philosophizing removed from here.


Charles: Oh, and btw: I still haven't got a response from my lurkers about Undercouncil mechanics. (those damn slackers)
10:27 PM Though I did note on one of my trips through the civilopedia that Good civs can't join the Undercouncil so I'm not aiming to convert to Order any time soon.
10:30 PM me: oh, I thought that was obvious
Evil can't join Overcouncil either
10:31 PM Charles: It's obvious once you take a look at it....I've never actually played around with the undercouncil :shame:
me: that choice is one of the only compensations Neutral civs get for not being able to get an almost free Great Prophet
10:32 PM Charles: Murphy's law says that anytime I play a Neutral leader I will see the "buy a GP for 52 g event" and that every time I play an Evil/Good leader....I won't...seems to be holding true so far this game.
10:33 PM me: and no matter which religion you're in, you won't be eligible for that golden age
10:35 PM Charles: hehe. Yeah I noticed. The thing that got to me about the "If you were running CoE you'd get a GA" event was the timing....it happened the same turn you founded CoE. The RNG couldn't have been saying "FUCK YOU" any louder.
10:36 PM me: to both of us
Charles: Indeed.
10:38 PM The bitch about being Spiritual with multiple religions is that you know that the turn after you swap religions, you'll get the event for the religion you just swapped out of. (yes, it has happened to me....not this game yet, but it's just a matter of time.)
10:39 PM me: well, of course
but only if you actually switch
if you talk yourself out of it, then it'll be the potential new one instead
10 minutes
10:50 PM Charles: Yeah it seems to work that way. So I tend to content myself with just grabbing the toys that come with each religion and not worrying about events too much.
10:51 PM The odd thing about Spiritual....it often doesn't pay to grab the religious heroes if you want to maximize the trait.
10:52 PM me: yeah, I can see that. What's the point in a 10 XP hero, compared to having an army that's Blessed, with excellent guaranteed collateral and throwaway tigers?
the latter will kill the hero anyway
10:55 PM Charles: Well, there is the beaker investment to consider. But on the whole I agree. Especially once you consider the power of 16h bronze warriors, with +1 st thanks to bless and + 20% thanks to enchanted blade and +10% thanks to SoF.....WK's power rating sucks, but it's a damn sight better than it looks at first glance.
10:56 PM me: yes, one can't use Power as anything but a rough guide
10:57 PM Charles: Throwaway Tigers are hard countered by Subdue animal Rangers....a couple of those and "All your tigers are belong to us"
me: oh, sure, if you're willing to stack up where the mages can get at you
especially since Power doesn't take metal into account, it's very general
10:58 PM Charles: Mages are a pita.....that's what assassins are for.
Yeah, power graphs can be very misleading when it comes to estimating actual combat strength.
10:59 PM me: yeah, ultimately it comes down to bring a balanced army, or scout your enemy and exploit their weakness
there's always a counter
Charles: A bit of both I suspect. "Know thy enemy" seems appropriate.
11:00 PM Initiative is vital in FFH
11:01 PM me: given how painless collateral can be, yes
Charles: If you let your army get hit with ranged collateral you're in for some trouble....hit your enemy for some collateral and you're golden.
11:02 PM me: if there were a chance for mages to die like catapults, I don't think it would quite as vital
but still generally true
Charles: Agreed, though cats in FFH are pretty awesome given their base retreat chance.....the only problem is actually getting them on target.
11:04 PM Without the ability to get hasted, cats are damn slow even in defence mode. 3 move mounted units vs 2 move (assuming roads) cats....it can get ugly fast.
11:05 PM me: can cats take the Mobility promotion?
that would partially make up for it (although still on defense only)
(well, or Raiders)
11:06 PM Charles: AFIK, cats can't take Mobility nor are they affected by Raiders. So no easy movement in enemy territory and no easy moves in your own.
11:07 PM They're fine for early/mid game defence, but junk after that.
11:08 PM me: ah, I had forgotten that they don't get Raider-boosted eitehr
11:09 PM I can think of circumstances where you could make them work; just not of circumstances where you wouldn't rather have a mage or priest
11:10 PM Charles: Like playing the Kzad? They're about the only civ that can make cats work early....and even then they're probably better off with Ritualists...
11:11 PM me: well, or if you're performing a successful pillage war/choke, where you pretty much have control of the countryside, you have time to bring in Cats
11:12 PM they provide a threat that can't be ignored, so can take you from choking to conquering
11:13 PM say, if you were playing Tasunke, and were able to threaten enough cities simultaneously that your opponent can't put together a stack of doom
11:14 PM but still, I'd rather have a Fire Mage
11:17 PM anyway, it's bedtime for me
so I'll ttyl
11:20 PM Charles: g'night. Nice chatting with you again.

[DaveV]

Slaves only give 6 hammers at quick speed. The hammers scale with game speed, but the gold cost doesn't, so they're a great deal at Marathon speed, but not so much at Quick.

Slaves have a 10% chance of being elves or dwarves, so they can be useful for quick roads on forests or hills. They're also great for the Balseraphs, who can use them to build cages.