[Spoilers] Commodore as Darius of the HRE

[Ceiliazul]

Yes, log shows GES finishing off the trifecta.

How is anti-Egypt operation "Monsanto" going? That is the drive to GES farmers to bankruptcy and get him out of builder mode.

[oledavy]

Rheims:

Barracks
Granary
Forge
Walls
Courthouse
Lighthouse
GLH

That's all I see - the notification box covering the other half of the screen means I can't see everything. If you are really interested in knowing all the buildings that are in the city, post a screenshot of it with the bare map overlay on - would be happy to help

[Commodore]

Thanks oledavy! Here's Rheims in all its glory:




The recently captured Paris:




And finally, my next target, Chartes:

How is anti-Egypt operation "Monsanto" going? That is the drive to GES farmers to bankruptcy and get him out of builder mode.

Um. Bankrupting ain't going to happen. Many things are still to be done, but that gold surplus means a heck of a lot of potential.



The difficulty is, GES talked like all of us had the rolling NAPs with him, and Yuri mentioned his NAP was also a 10-turn renewal. Seven, however, said that Mali's NAP is longer, and has a set date, which he couldn't mention exactly. It's "not game-long, but not ten turns either". I hope that he means it'll be in the 30-turn range, anything else, we're screwed. Yuri might very well be doomed by that anyway, as turn 111 is rapidly approaching. GES also claims he wants to start breaking heads soon. Gunpowder, again fortunately, is three turns away. Right now, it's wait, watch, and stir the diplomacy. I will be willing to NAP RL7 if we agree to go break some GES head.

[Nicolae Carpathia]

If you find it a bit dark, use the bare overlay by pressing Ctrl-B. Everything lights up as if it's unfogged (of course, you either need vision or top-5 city status to see its latest state.

MNG does have the basic infrastructure, but he is missing a few crucial ones.

[oledavy]

Rheims
Granary
Forge
Library
Courthouse
Market
Barracks
Lighthouse
Walls
GLH

A real gem of a city in terms of infrastructure, would be a shame if it was captured

Paris
Granary
Mint
Market
Academy
The Hanging Gardens

Chartres
Granary
Forge
Courthouse
Barracks

[Commodore]

Rheims
Granary
Forge
Library
Courthouse
Market
Barracks
Lighthouse
Walls
GLH

A real gem of a city in terms of infrastructure, would be a shame if it was captured

[COLOR="Orange"]Hey, so we kind of slaughtered all of MNG's forces south of the river last turn in response to a tactical blunder by him and captured Rheims. Also managed to sneak in two coastal city captures in the north, woohoo! Fingers crossed that they hold, it's kind of dicey.

His remaining cities are Chartres and Lyons. I recalled our navy headed for Chartres as promised, it's all yours. I wouldn't mind if you took Lyons too, though it's a bit isolated for you of course.

We didn't have any specific deals about dividing up the spoils of this war. (I avoided that since I had no idea how well either of us would fare; I'd rather just see the effort rewarded naturally by having new cities. My only view on that was we weren't going to finish off a city you had already laid siege to, and hopefully vice versa.) Nevertheless we did coordinate with you, used scouting information, and have together brought about an insanely fast and complete fall of France. And it's been fun chatting. Mali did most of the fighting (partly since you were a couple turns later than expected, and hey, the war's only lasted 5 turns so far), but I still want to make sure you don't feel like you got a raw deal. So what would you like, what do you think is fair? (Please be honest.)

Seven[/COLOR]

Well, he asked for honesty. One thing that is pretty clear, galleons make for scary forks, no way am I going to be foolishly bellicose on this one. Well, time to go potshot Chartres and then vertical growth mostly (next turn will also see the fish/fur settler being built, and then it's one for the Parthian peninsula).

[COLOR="Yellow"]Hey Seven,

That makes sense, actually, I figured he was going to be going on the offensive, he had said "scorched earth" was his strategy, which without pikes against knights means "I die in the local fields". By all means take Lyons, it's a long way around the spoke to my hub canal (now up and running, by the way, if your galley needs to get home by the north of the hub).

I'm honestly rather bummed by the lack of gains made in this war, to be totally honest. One thing is, we're all rather in a worse situation because we decided to jump MNG-ward rather than towards GES, who is, if not running away with the game, at least clearly out in front. One reason I had galleys heading towards Tours was that I had figured the Chartres/Tours/Parthian line was actually nice and stable as a border, with minimal conflict from the other big French cities. Rheims was darned close to bombed Paris, but the GLH meant that the city could basically just work coast tiles and still be a massive profit to the empire, so when you guys took Tours I was okay with it if it meant Rheims was mine. So, yeah, I do feel a little raw dealed, especially as it feels like I lost taking both Tours and Rheims due to simple turn order.

Of course, I'm not an idiot, nor am I angry, just disappointed. It would be rank insanity for us to fight over anything, with you having a huge army and the most advanced navy in the world, and me pumping out (for UU reasons) the natural counter to the mainstay of your army. Plus, well, I like to work with you and honestly if any non-GES team is going to win this it's going to take coordination on the part of Middle Earth and Hyboria. One possible solution: Because I saw Tours fall I did not do my planned chariot->knight upgrades for the three war chariots in the area. I'm on the Gunpowder beeline now, but in 1 or 2 turns I'll have it, and if you guys are on the "steal economics from GES" path, then it's not critical that I keep 100% researching towards banking. I'd pay the cost of those 3 upgrades for Tours. Now I know this would give me a natural source of spices, but I'd still be also willing to give you Parthian's dyes once she pops out of resistance. This seem like a fair trade? I know you're still riding the wave of capture gold, but unless you're absolutely getting crushed by maintenance this should even help you on the grenadiers line.

Which is one side thought, actually. I know you can't speak to the specific time frame of your GES NAP, but can you give an estimate of whether it will expire in the rifles era or the infantry era? If it's more likely that GES will start drafting mass rifles, the grenadiers are a good enough counter, especially in an offensive war, but if it's infantry, I'd rather go up the more traditional rifling route.

Until later,
-Commodore[/COLOR]

[Commodore]

Wherever it is that he's at risk for MNG recapturing a city, it's not here, where the bomb is finally paying off for them.



On the plus side, my next Protected Western Port [SIZE="1"]™[/SIZE] is falling in three turns.



Man things move fast in MP. See: Power. GES can't keep farming forever.

Yuri: hey Commodore, you around?
me: Yep, what's up
Yuri: I was thinking about your earlier chat with Maestro
in which you mentioned that RL7 and you are planning something against GES
me: Eventually
Yuri: I was wondering if there are any firm plans? some kind of a timeline?
me: His GNP while saving gold is more than mine at 100%
Yuri: yeah, he is definitely the biggest threat
and with his 3 religious wonders, he will only increase the lead
me: Yeah, it's scary.
I'll definitely be including you in the plans when its something concrete.
For now, I'm really trying to figure out how long the GES/RL7 NAP is.
Don't want us to cancel while they're still NAP'd into the next twenty turns.
Yuri: yeah, I understand
the point is, we now have Janissaries, might as well use them
me: Yeo
Yuri: I'm sure Maestro mentioned that we want Lyons, don't think we have a chance to get it though, we can get there in 5 turns at the earliest, I'm sure RL7 or you will capture it by then
me: Erm, yep
Yuri: so GES is the most logical target
if we want to attack at all
me: It won't be me in Lyons
Yuri: I'm thinking if we should build military at all :P)
me: RL7 might take it, but it's a mess up there.
Yuri: oh, really? we're actually talking to RL7, and asking them to leave Lyons for us. they could even agree
but so far it looked like a steamroll
I thought it was like 2-3 turns until MNG is dead
me: It has been, but MNG does have a ton of knights/maces around there.
RL7 might lose one of their just-captured cities.
Yuri: aha, I see, interesting! they actually told us last turn to hurry up while Lyons was still available, and we were thinking of sending a small stack of just 6 units for Lyons
we won't now
me: I'm a lock for Chartres in his south.
Won't hurry up? It still might be for the best.
Talked to MNG at all?
He's a little miffed about RL7 more than anything else, might be willing to let you guys take it more easily than them
Sent at 4:01 PM on Saturday
Yuri: hmmm, I might talk to him. we didn't really talk lately. he was repeatedly asking to re-open borders, which we couldn't do due to the agreement with RL7. and then he sent us the strange trade offer, which even caused Maestro to hold the turn. but now dialogue
me: Of course, turn order matters. I lost the shots at Tours and Rheims due to MNG-RL7-me order.
Yuri: Oh, we know that, we lost Taj to GES on turn order
Sent at 4:03 PM on Saturday
me: Bah
On the plus side, GES would have been even scarier early if he hadn't lost Hinduism and Judaism to me via turn order.
Yuri: true
Sent at 4:05 PM on Saturday
Yuri: ok, thanks a lot for the update on the situation in France! A lot to think about And please let us know how the plans against GES develop, we're thinking hard about cancelling the NAP and forcing him to start building units
me: That might be wise.
Force him to spend money on units rather than tech
Plus, he's a ways from Astronomy still, so you can hit him but he can't hit you.
Yuri: well, we have common border in the middle, so he could hit us there. but cultural borders in the outer sea are certainly to our advantage
me: Ah, yeah
Yuri: and if we land a stack of 10 Jans in our border city in the middle, it could be intimidating by itself
me: Yep
One suggestion, a few cats too
Yuri: definitely
me: It's been hurting MNG a lot to not have any collateral.
Yuri: he doesn't have Cats?? wow that's weird
me: Yeah, it's odd
Maces and knights, but not construction.
Meanwhile, I have a ton of cats at critical nodes throughout my land.
I made sure that RL7 saw 'em too.
Sent at 4:11 PM on Saturday
Yuri: that's wise. I didn't expect MNG to undervalue Cats so much though
not having Construction at this point of the game is just... I can't understand it at all
me: Yeah, boggles my mind.
I mean, good play getting guilds, yes.
But I'd rather have the ability to move my maces across rivers.
Yuri: well, RL7 got Guilds AND Astronomy AND built a sizeable army in the same time
and they do have Construction
me: Yeah
Engineering too
All stuff that's hard to counter short of gunpowder...
:-)
Which I'll be getting next turn.
Yuri: well, I won't tell you exactly how much they wanted for the NAP extension, but it was over 500g
guess they didn't expect us to have Gunpowder
good for you
me: Hah
Nice.
That's not worth it.
Although I bet they would agree to a short NAP if GES is the next target.
Might be able to buy galleons, even, unless the excellent lawyer that is GES managed to include a mention of selling to third parties in their NAP
Yuri: Galleons are on offer
but again, we can't agree on the price so far
me: Dude.
Galleons loaded with Jans are incredible.
Might have more luck now with all the MNG cities falling so fast.
Sent at 4:19 PM on Saturday
Yuri: he actually sent us the price they want just a few hours ago. it's 200g. I know how awesome Galleons are, but not sure they're THAT awesome
don't tell anyone about this offer please
Sent at 4:20 PM on Saturday
me: Of course not.
That's roughly 1-2 galleons per turn of gold saving.
Sent at 4:22 PM on Saturday
Yuri: yeah. I mean, for 150g, I would probably accept it without further thoughts. but 200g... almost 4g for 1h... don't know. will talk with Maestro before deciding
me: Hrm
Well, you're heading to grocers soon?
Gold gets a lot more efficiently acquired at that point.
Yuri: yeah, true. guess I just didn't expect to see such a high price
getting Galleons without Astronomy, which is a very bad tech for us, is certainly extremely valuable
me: Yeah
Not to mention the surprise factor.
Flash a galley down south and a couple jans up in the hub, then wham
Sent at 4:27 PM on Saturday
Yuri: yeah, that would be a big wham for sure
me: He have any critical wonders in coastal areas?
Sent at 4:29 PM on Saturday
Yuri: Not sure, didn't pay more attention to it lately... on my laptop, it takes ages just to check internal stuff
me: Heh, just post the screen-shots and ask the lurkers, it working for me.
Yuri: I will check it when I'm back on Wednesday, not worth bothering the lurkers I think
me: Either way. ;-)
Keep me up to date, I'll cancel on GES when you guys do
Yuri: will do!
thanks
me: Hey, if any of us win we're going to have to work together.
Oh, Hindu missionary is on it's way, though I note you'd gotten a free Judaism spread.
Yuri: oh, that's nice, I didn't notice that. guess I was only checking for captured cities and new wonders in the turn log
me: Yeah, that's been my main attention too
Just noticed the pop-up message.
Yuri: ah, it could be at the end of this turn, I didn't even have it in my turn log then
but it's excellent news
me: Yep!
Bureau capitals need as many monasteries as possible.
Yuri: sure! we're working hard on it. although Oxford has higher priority
me: Well, naturally.
How many Universities is it for a small map?
Yuri: 5
me: Oh, I was thinking 6
Excellent.
Yuri: no, 6 on standard, 5 on small. I wasn't sure it scaled, was relieved to see it did
Sent at 4:40 PM on Saturday
me: That's actually nice
There are seven cities that I want universities in soon either way, but it helps in the planning.
Sent at 4:41 PM on Saturday
Yuri: it sure does! we've been going back and forth trying to figure out the optimal way of getting them
me: Lots and lots of whips.
:-)
Yuri: yeah, our citizens will remember these years for a long time :D
me: Ah well, it's emancipation time soon enough
Might as well enjoy it while we can.
Yuri: yeah

Yuri and Maestro are on the move soon too, as can be seen, Janissaries incoming soon. Heck yes I'm going egg them on. An interesting and depressing aspect of this all is that I might be the last to Oxford even as I'm first to printing press. Oh well, just need to get drama next and then off to Chemistry, Military Science, and then the railroad beeline.



My best and brightest new city is ready for its university, whipped in like everywhere else. I have enough forests to chop out one more wonder...Kremlin anyone? Need to calcuate how quickly I could get to communism. The free great spy would be nice for another golden age.



Zamora is not going to be a legendary city unless by accident. That's too exposed. The place is worth quite a few nice great artists, though.

[Commodore]

Pace has definitely slowed with a war/Yuri on vacation. Nonetheless, Turn 104 finally rolled in with a vital tech. Oxford's going to be huge here.



Several cities were immediately swapped to making universities, although Aquilonia needs to finish off the grocer first before she starts her own. Thanks to her great production, she'll still finish it before 4 more complete, which means she'll also have time to slip in a Buddhist monastery too, assuming Buddhism successfully spreads.



As can be seen above, Nemedia is slipping in a quick settler for the Parthian Peninsula before she grows while making her own university. Koth's island-bound settler is getting picked up along with a worker in two more turns, which means I'll be able to net fish as soon as the city gets founded.



All this humming peaceful activity is good for business, apparently, as even more beakers are somehow scraped up in Hyboria, pushing me to the top GNP finally. My expenses are really nice, too, with this 100% science rate sustainable for a 4:1 science:gold ratio.



Oh wait, darn it, GES' Golden Age is over. Ah, cest la vive, non? Also, see the fleeing MNG workers being liberated? No more worker-building for me.



The cat loss was because of a mace on a hill in my way. My LK was getting crap odds at first, so I sent the inexperienced cat in first. As can be seen, the resulting damage made my landsknecht's engagement a walkover. My WC can take Chartres next turn if only the warrior remains inside, otherwise, it'll wait one more turn for the knight and landsknechts to join in. As an aside, what is up with the lack of pasture/farm there?



Parthian, now dubbed "Corinthia", still has some time before it will pop out of revolt. Quick question: Will the chop go into the city and be saved until it comes out of revolt, or would it be wasted? If so I'll need to cancel quickly next turn, as those 20 hammers will be nice to jump start a cultural building or two.



Unsurprisingly, Seven Spirits said no to the low ball offer. The one thing I really don't like about Dol Amroth (Tours) is how it gives them access to a port in "my" inner sea area. It might be worth a bit more to buy it, but probably not their asking price, as gold is hard for me to get and worth a lot of research.

[COLOR="Orange"]I've got a bit of internet tonight. I don't want to negotiate or promise anything now (can't see the save... and we still don't know if we lost cities to MNG this turn. But I can respond to a couple questions:

> This seem like a fair trade?

Fair trade? Definitely not. A city is worth much more than such a small amount of gold. (How much, exactly?) That in itself doesn't rule the swap out, but, like I said, not going into that right now.

> GES NAP?

I'm not going to answer directly as that's confidential (and I'm not going to try to hint at things). But here is some information I feel fine giving.

* It looks like GES is 8 turns from Rifling in that he has tons of gold and 8-9 techs left to reach Rifling.
* I have no idea how long it generally takes people to get from Rifling to Assembly Line.
* The reason I signed the NAP with him was to be safe from his easy access to muskets while we pummeled someone with knights and then integrated their land. Of course, I didn't know how long that would take. (Still don't for the second part.)
* Grenadiers are kind of dumb defensively and maybe not strong enough amphibiously. I think Rifles + drafting + ideally Cannon would be what I'd go for, even against other Rifles. Unless you have a specific invasion plan with grens like we did with knights. But I mean I'd totally get chemistry, for the option. And Steel. And frigates.

Btw you don't need assistance to screw someone on this map. Just a few Galleons and units.

Seven[/COLOR]

So, yeah. A side thought I just had is that my ideal time to move is actually probably after Assembly Line...I don't play a ton of Industrial Age, but I do know factories are huge...and half-price for Org. That, plus a less efficient draft coming in at the same time, means that if GES isn't half an era ahead by then it might make more sense to wait. Especially if RL7's stupid NAP is as long as I think it is.

[Ceiliazul]

I'm busy with work, but still paying attention. I'm not at all surprised that RL7 ended up sacking Rheims, as he had te forces and the city was very much worth it.

I don't know that GES remains the favorite for long once RL7 is cooking with 1.8 starting blobs.

If GES and RL7 aren't going to butt heads, then you might be shooting for third... but two world powers can't stay fast friends forever. Be patient, and see what opportunity knocks.

[oledavy]

If GES and RL7 aren't going to butt heads, then you might be shooting for third... but two world powers can't stay fast friends forever. Be patient, and see what opportunity knocks.

Agreed, perhaps work to court the Ottomans and play RL7 and GES against each other.