[spoilers] Gaspar and Commodore welcome you to the islands, mon!

[Commodore]

Buggerit, yes he does have our charts. Also, he's scared of pissing us off via flip:

Commodore: Hey Sian, good timing
Just was checking the forums before heading down to the lab.
Sian: wanted to talk to you about Revantusk
Commodore: Did those losers flip?
Sian: since i was unlucky (planed Confusism popping in the other end of my empire)
not yet
i'm having a suggestion to make it even ... You gift me Revantusk and i'll make a new settler in Pedro to gift to you
Sent at 9:27 AM on Friday
Commodore: Well, that's a reasonable offer but if Revantusk can pop it's borders I think the danger will be past.
My understanding of the way culture works is the it'll be getting 20cpt in the middle once that happens.
Creative+Library+Holy City is only () 9cpt
Sian: not entirely certain how it does, but yeah, you get massively more culture in your inner rings when they're on
Commodore: Plus, not sure if you noticed, but you gave us a free spread the turn you founded.
Which means the pop is in 3 turns.
Sian: well ...how about this ... if it flips i'll promise to give you a settler
Commodore: We settled it for the seafood east of the island and the plains hill to mine.
That sounds good.
I know you weren't trying to flip it.
Stupid RNG.
Sian: while making reasonable guesses you can't be certain where such things pops
tried loading the dices towards popping in my bordercity with Rego (who IMO is the biggest contender, and need to be culled sooner or later) but alas
Sent at 9:33 AM on Friday
Sian: hmm ... looks like i might be last to Currency :z
Commodore: Yeah, Rego's holy city is hurting Pindicator like that.
Sent at 9:35 AM on Friday
Commodore: We're actually mulling over hitting Rego sooner rather than later.
Still haven't decided.
But he beat us to the Hanging Gardens by a turn, we're a little miffed.
Sian: i really want to have a safe flank with you guys so i don't have to divert my (not quite built yet) army away from a planed attack on Rego
did you try for Mids as well?
Commodore: Yeah.
Failgold economy.
The 'mids weren't nearly as close though.
Sian: but truth be told ... rego is the one investing 'least' on HG ... Hammams is usefull, and with Stone and OR
Commodore: Didn't waste chops on them or anything.
Yeah, we're a bit happy-limited on this map.
Any sign of Gold/Gems/Silver? We've yet to find any.
Sian: i did try subtly to suggest you didn't go for it ('Mids) but you was to uninformative
Commodore: Eh, it's fine, they let us go to Currency at 100%
Sian: i have visual on 3 kinds of happy ... Furs, Wine and Silk
Commodore: Meh
We can see those, plus a dyes site with no food.
Sian: but then again ... i might not be as hard pressed as others (together with Rego)
Commodore: Well, SA help, and Org makes them nice.
Still, wondering if Chm might have been better.
Sian: have to admit that my scouting leaves something to be wanted, but can't really afford to devert hammers into scouting galleys
Sent at 9:41 AM on Friday
Commodore: Yeah, we just know map along the two lines for our workboats.
Sian: had a scouting Workboat but that had to net crabs for a city ...
me: Yeah, it's usually the right choice.
Sian: now i have 2 galleys but they're to busy (or rather ... to little time inbetween) transporting stuff to scout
me: Yeah, it's just how it works.
Ah well, just keep REX'ing and it'll be fine, I think.
Sian: oh well ... onwards with the save (haven't had time to do it all day)

[T-hawk]

My understanding of the way culture works is the it'll be getting 20cpt in the middle once that happens.

That's correct, with the caveat that the city must be producing some culture each turn to get the 20. If you pop the border with an artist specialist then fire him, you don't get the 20.

[Commodore]

Okay, so over lunch I did a quick and dirty sim, and then played the turn. There was a weird little twist; here's the upshot:



We have, with the settling of our most recent city, five more turns of max research. We also have one more turn of max research to grab HBR, and it takes four turns to hit Monarchy going the cheap way. (enough slop to 1-turn archery either way at break-even) We could finish HBR and then hit Monarchy or we could swap now to Monarchy and then finish HBR/archery. Weirdly enough, according to the sim the Monarchy-first route gave 6 galleys and 10 Numidians (plus a couple archers for defense), whereas the HBR/archery first netted us 6 and 11. The extra +2 happy is huge for whipping out an army, and the production for the next five turns is going to be galleys anyway.

The reason for this detour is because frankly our people hate us right now. Sen'Jin is finishing an MP and then its foodhammer *something*, be it worker or settler. Maybe not a worker, depends on how quickly the copper-fort fellow can be retrieved.



Poor Peon 3 here is the only main island worker remaining, and he should be shuffled north to the cows island after first putting one turn of roading down on the wines. At least he got to put a turn into a cottage on the riverside plains this turn.




It's all a matter of how important it is to us to have Zul'Aman here working a 4/2/0 tile instead of 3/0/0. I'd say it's "important" but maybe less important than roading the wines first. In other news, OB is sooo vital to our economy here.



In other infrastructural notes the wonderful little exploring work boat that could is making its way southwest for the last time to net green dot's clams. Note the lovely "one has food, the other has production, chose losers!" island currently being ogled.



The next city should probably not go on the hill the settler is now on. Going 1NW is a great city short-term, but weaker by 3 grasslands in the longer term. The question is: Do we care? In the long, long run 3 towns is huge, but it's going to be quite a while before that happens. Snowballs are telling me to go 1NW. They've been known to lead me wrong before though.



Zandalar swapped to a galley, under the astute observation that the market won't mind being delayed until we're back to saving gold, and we need another galley bringing soldiers to Revantusk and workers home sooner rather than later. Next turn, hit it with a whip and the market will come in just in time to deal with the anger. Furs go to Zim'Torga (who drops the deer, remember, commerce is king the next five turns, and it's getting +25%), and the unrivered grass hill mine dude is swapped to a flood plain the turn after that, if it doesn't drop the market ETA.



We're going to be going whole-hog, might as well not pussy-foot around about it. Archers will make nice MP units, which is good, note that next turn is the last turn warriors can be built.

One other note of micro, Echo will retake its horses next turn to make a galley, tell Zuldazar to suck it up and work a dang flood plain farm. Whiny city, utter failure as a wonder-producer. With the advent of Monarchy, missionaries, and monuments, Zuldazar's settler might actually be best used to hit "crappy wines/fish" city. It's going to have nice tiles to work, and it'll be 4gpt less expensive on maintenance.

[Ceiliazul]

Whiny city, utter failure as a wonder-producer.

Is that any way to treat your economic engine? :neenernee

Looking good for future plans, Sian sure is on the button with his diplo though.

[Commodore]

Yeah, he's not going to be taken by surprise, though he might be taken by force. Gaspar, the save's yours if you want it. He's the annoying bit:



Sigh. Need to have troops crush this.

[Commodore]

Yeah, Mr. Badcop isn't very effective as a delaying fella. Still, we got a small delay and we're going to have a massive mobility advantage when hammer time does come.

Commodore: Hey Sian
3:43 PM Sian: hello ...
just wanted to note that Revanrusk is revolting
Commodore: Ah, thanks for letting us know.
We should be able to get a couple MPs in there shortly.
3:44 PM Hrm.
I wonder if giving it to you and you giving it back would reset that.
3:45 PM Sian: by the way ... could we in good faith enlarge our NAP ?
no clue to be honest ... gut feeling says no
simply because it would be flooded so quickly again after gifting it back
3:46 PM Commodore: Hrm, well, the danger zone is about to be gone
Once we have MPs in there, it'll be solid.
3:47 PM The MP's we'd want anyway, as we're beelining Monarchy for happiness.
Some of us don't have access to Representation.
Sian: Rego allready have Monarchy so you'll get it a bit cheaper
3:48 PM (at least he have wine online so ...)
3:49 PM Commodore: Yeah, probably.
Figures, he has all the religious techs anyway
3:50 PM Oh, on the NAP extension, I'll need to talk it over with Gaspar.
He's not a NAP fan.
3:51 PM Sian: The question is if i (after the SA's are done after this turn) are 'free' to focus on taking a podshot at Rego, before he gets Feudalism, or i have to secure my flank with spears
3:52 PM letting Rego run away
3:53 PM reviewed some of my stuff and got an ugly feeling that Pin and Rego at least to some degree is working together (more specificly Pin's knowlegde about Rego going for Oracle and early Feudalism (which seems likely with his early Monarchy and sparse defenses)
3:54 PM Commodore: Hrm, be thinking on any opportunities for loot for us, might be up for raiding on the dogpile.
Yeah, Pin seems oddly pro-Rego.
3:56 PM Sian: thinking back ... he appeared in forefront aware of Rego protentially running away, but at the same time unwilling to contribute stating 'non-disclosure' on a NAP ...
how often is that a part of a NAP really?
Commodore: Often, apparently.
3:57 PM Looking at 24, Mackoti forced one out of Gaspar.
Sian: then again ... first actual MP i'm playing where there's Diplo involved so ...
how'd i know
Commodore: NAPs are a bit of a sensitive subject for Gaspar. :P
3:59 PM I'd never, ever sign a non-disclosure NAP like that though.
Sian: I pretty much have 2 choices at the moment, very much depending on what you guys do ... either i can nip Rego so he's not running away, or i have a protentially open flank, which have to be cleared and defended on, leaving me with to few foodhammers to build an effective army to bring to Rego
4:00 PM Commodore: Seems reasonable.
I'll run it by Gaspar.
4:01 PM I do wonder how much it'd take to actually cripple Rego, not just nip at him.
4:02 PM Sian: pff ... given that i'm the only one with copper as of yet, then Axes would be a good start
Commodore: Well, chariots against his warriors would be fine too.
4:03 PM Sian: and with a couple of Galleys i can, from his fog, reach and attack his Stone city (amphibiously) in t1, and if getting through, his second city in t2)
4:04 PM probs have to throw in a Spear or 2 to defend against Chariots (which i should expect him having)
4:05 PM Commodore: Yeah, but burning cities would mean no need for defense.
Sian: true ...
4:06 PM well ... its all birds on the roof till i know where you guys are standing
Commodore: Yeah, but it helps to think about. I'll let you know how Gaspar feels.
4:10 PM Sian: oh well ... going to sleep on it ... ttys
Commodore: Cheers

[Gaspar]

Not going to be super available to take the save for a couple hours yet. If you can get it feel free, if not I'll grab it later. I'm very free this weekend so I can get caught up on the game then.

[Commodore]

Cool, took it then. My wife's all about Skyrim this evening, so plenty o' gaming time for Mr. Commodore too.

Next turn we'll go to pasture some cows. Awesome 4/2 tile is awesome, once we get there. Which will actually be only a turn after loading, thanks to the joy of unloading in-city.



The worker for the wines will be produced in Zim'Torga at least, maybe via the whip. Have to load-balance for research, foodhammers, and etc. One extra hammer is possible via the expansive bonus once the copper is in-range.



Found a production site! Sorta.



Whipped Yojamba for some culture 'an junk. Now this is a nice site. 2 or 3 hills, two cottages, clams. Shoulda settled it first, were it not for the stone attempts, we woulda.



Galley made in Zandalar, and the timing is nice for market and pop growth at the same time. Shweet! Send in the warrior to punish those traitors.



Busy weekend in Commodoria, so yeah, the you'll have plenty of chances to get reacquainted with this whiny little empire.

[Commodore]

I hate NAPs. Here's Sian's email:

[COLOR="Lime"]decided what i have to work with? ... theres really 2 choices for me right now, depending on you guys

1. I'm forced to except you to plan an attack, hence have to build ample defense, putting a planed attack on Rego on the shelf letting him run away (and especially with my epiphany about that he and Pin (his other neightbour) just might be working together, hence there being no trustworthy support from that front to challange Rego, since you and Yuri is to far away to do something decisive)

2. accept my offer about gifting a settler when/if Revantusk flips, giving me a longer NAP so i have the resources to take down Rego a few pins, so the game still is open.

you should feel lucky ... from where i'm sitting (slightly biased but nonetheless), your choice might well decide if Rego is handed a free win or not[/COLOR]

My impulse is to tell him to bugger off and let the crap hit the fan however it goes. You have a different impulse, Gaspar?

[Gaspar]

My instinct is there's 12 turns left in our NAP, seems awfully early to be expecting an attack from us. The whole exchange kind of annoys me truth be told.

Look, I don't really know what the best course of action is here. All of my experience tells me early warfare is probably doomed to fail, particularly now that he's especially tipped off on it. But what guarantee do we have that he attacks Rego? For all we know, he goes about getting a NAP with us and just techs in relative peace until the next time the NAP is up. And a settler is hardly exciting payment for a city. Maybe we should have settled it earlier/not settled it at all, but now that its down I'd much rather keep it.

The bottom line as I see it is I don't give a crap about Rego right now. We're in last place on the scoreboard and even if you eliminate less important things like Culture's impact on that score, the only person you could conceivably argue is behind us is Sian and his 5CC. Do we really think he can put something together that can hurt rego? I don't. We could let the NAP lapse and not attack. If his 5 cities are banging out spears, they're not banging out settlers and he'll just fall further behind. If I actually thought he could make gains against rego, I'd be willing to give him a short NAP extension, then come get him later after he's pulled rego back to the pack. But I don't.

So to me the question is this: Do we want to attack Sian when the NAP is up or just let him think we're going to attack him when the NAP is up?

Save is played, I'll get a report up in a bit.