Ranamar and Lewwyn, ministers for Bismarck of Mali

[SevenSpirits]

I wonder how someone got 21 GNP. We have 16, and I'll have to think harder about how we got that, too.

That's 5 more than us. I'm almost certain it's Hatshepsut (creative, +2) working a 3/0/1 tile (+1) researching Animal Husbandry (+2).

Could you screencap the settings screen?

[Ranamar]

That's 5 more than us. I'm almost certain it's Hatshepsut (creative, +2) working a 3/0/1 tile (+1) researching Animal Husbandry (+2).

Could you screencap the settings screen?

I guessed it was something like that.

Also, I know I've seen how to get it before, but... I failed to remember and there isn't an obvious button. Help me out?

[Lewwyn]

Man beyond the Cpaital's resources that map looks barren

[Ranamar]

Man beyond the Cpaital's resources that map looks barren

Yeah, really...

I'm thinking we move the warrior onto the desert hill NE again, though, because the border pop in three turns from the palace will do a fair amount of local scouting for us by revealing the ring of tiles next outside the capital.

Also, if anyone has a naming scheme they want to use, I'm all ears.

Edit: Oh, other thing...
What kind of opening are you guys actually planning?

I just played with the sandbox a bit and came up with a size 2 capital, two workers, two warriors, a settler, and the techs Agriculture, AH, and BW on turn 23. Oh, and four turns of extra research after that, IIRC. I'm sure you guys have something you like better in mind, but I figured I'd throw that out there.
I didn't sufficiently document or think about it, but I did it by working the wheat for the last two turns of the first worker build followed by back to the forest plains for two turns and then back to the wheat (still two turns from being farmed, initially) for the rest of the time. AH comes in one turn after the farm finishes, so, after moving to the sheep, I pastured it, while the other worker went to the cows. Here, I built a warrior to grow to size two to also work the sheep (for commerce), which, after pasturing, I had a bunch of worker turns (4-6; I forget) that I didn't know what to do with, so I built a mine. At that point, I built a settler, expedited by chopping a forest. (Oh, and I revolted into Slavery at the same time, so one could always save a turn that way, too.)

[Ranamar]

Played another turn... this is our exploration so far:



That is a plains hill, a desert hill, and a pig, up in the corner. Next warrior move: N onto forested hill.

It's probably a bit early to talk about whether we want to build TGL in city 2, but it seems like it could be valuable.

Also, I left the worker building like it was before. We have another two turns before we need to make a final decision on whether we're going to switch over to a 3F tile for the last two turns of the worker build. I'm not certain it gets us to AH faster, but I feel like it does, based on the way the numbers moved. If nothing else, though, we do get kind of screwed on overflow with how that multiplier interacts with food.

(I swear I'll get that tech tree picture out at some point.)

[Lewwyn]

Pig is nice, especially grassland pig.

Do we save hammers on the overflow if we work the corn for 2 turns before the last turn? Ie: Switch and work corn for 2 turns now, then switch back to the forest. That would cut down on the food being multiplied and divided.

[Lewwyn]

I sandboxed out Agr>BW>AH and by T30 had 3 workers, 2 settlers, 2 warriors and a granary completed in two turns.

Then I tried Agr>AH>BW and by T26 had 2 Settlers, 2 workers, 1 warrior. Now I had a choice for a 3 turn settler or a 2 turn worker. Went worker and by the EOT30 I had 3 Settlers, 3 workers, 1 warrior with corn, sheep, cows, 1 riverside cottage, 1 grasshill mine, 1 FP farm and 4 roads. Size 3 cap that would then build a warrior in 2T and grow to 4 in 2T.

I think its safe to say AH first beats out BW in this situation.

Also tile micro in the early turns went like this:

T0- 1f/2h tile
T1- 1f/2h tile
T2- 3f/1c tile
T3- 3f/1c tile
T4- 1f/2h tile - Agr done, AH Started
T5- 1f/2h tile
T6- 1f/2h tile - worker done EOT
T7- 1f/2h tile - worker starts farm
T8- 3f/1c tile
T9- 3f/1c tile
T10- 6f/1c tile - worker moved to floodplain starts road
T11- 6f/1c tile - AH in BW started - Worker road canceled, Sheep pastures started
T12- 6f/1c tile - worker done EOT
T13- 6f/1c tile - warrior started - 2nd worker 1 north, start road
T14- 6f/1c tile - 2nd worker cancel road, start cow pasture - Sheep done
T15- 6f/1c tile - 1st worker finish road FP
T16- corn + sheep tiles - Cap pop 2 1st worker finish road 1 north of cap, cow done
T17- corn + sheep tiles - Both workers road cow
T18- corn+sheep+cow - Cap pop 3 - warrior finished - settler started - both workers start farm on FP
T19- corn+sheep+cow - Cancel both workers on FP - move 1 worker to forest 2 N of cap, move 1 to forest NW of cap
T20- corn+sheep+cow - BW in - Pottery started - Both workers start chops

From there you just keep chopping out settlers. I have to go to dinner otherwise I'd finish it out. BW before AH didn't even come close to this. And the T8 switch to corn during the 2nd worker is key to getting AH a turn faster.

[SevenSpirits]

So I was trying this for the opening turns:

t0-4: work corn 2 of these turns, plains forest the rest. Agriculture finishes. Start AH.
t5-6: work plains forest. worker finishes.
t7: work corn, build warrior, start corn farm.
t8
t9
t10: corn farm finishes, grow. food now 1/16, hammers 8/10.
t11: work corn + FP. worker moves 1SE and builds half a road. food 8/16, warrior complete, AH finishes.
t12: worker moves 1S and builds pasture. build worker (using corn + sheep (same yield as FP, might as well avoid mistake of not switching to it later)). Research BW.
t13: (another 9h into worker)
t14-16: pasture finishes, and...
Either grow in 1t then finish worker in the next 2 working an extra plains forest, or finish worker then grow. The former effectively trades 1 worker turn for 3 overflow hammers compared to the latter.

Past that:
Workers road tile 1N of capital, then pasture cow.
Capital grows in 2t to size 4 after finishing worker, while finishing the warrior at the same time, then begins settler with 2 or 5 overflow. Workers can move to copper tile if we have one to mine and/or build a normal mine and/or chop (doesn't speed settler though, BW it too late compared to when the settler starts, unless two workers chop a single forest) and/or road to next city site. (This is probably something we should decide later.

The drawback over Lewwyn's plan (which may be better, I haven't really tried enough things yet) is fewer worker turns since the second worker is later by 3-4 turns. However, those only get used to build 2t of road and FP farm so the food/hammers we get in compensation might be worth it. Tangibly, we get the second warrior out a lot sooner, and a third as well. Scouting turns are hard to compare in value to other stuff.

In thinking about this, I also realized the possibility of another plan. Which is basically, just grow until size 3 after building the worker, and pasture the cows first. It takes 3 turns to grow from size 2 to size 3 (as opposed to only 2 turns if you have the sheep improved first) but you get up to 14h/turn; i.e. the second worker completes in 3 turns instead of 4. Since you generally want to put as many turns into the worker as possible at the size you finish producing it at (like, it would be dumb to almost finish it, then grow, then finish it; if you're going to be finishing it at size 3 it's probably efficient to grow to size 3 ASAP then build it), this has an advantage over the plan I posted above, which builds 2t of the worker at size 2 while waiting for the growth time to lower via the sheep. The drawback is you don't get the commerce from the sheep as soon, and this delays BW a turn.

Anyway, we are clearly on the right track. And it's also pretty clear from these various tries that we really want those extra 2 beakers towards agriculture so that we can get AH in time. Next decision point is after the first worker comes out - do we grow, or build another?

Also a note: all the worker micro once we finish the second pasture is going to depend on our scouting. Like, where we want to put the second city.

[Lewwyn]

So I just played a pretty sick opening. By Turn 30 I had built 3 warriors, 2 settlers, 2 workers, and Stonehenge(T27). Oh and then I finished researching pottery AND finished The Oracle at the EOT33 so that I was able to get Metal Casting on T34. Also the capital was size 6 with 1 unhappy because I didn't cap it but then on T34 I put one turn into a mint and whipped it on T35.

So yeah. Who likes that plan?

I took Seven's ideas and played out:
worker>warrior>Half-a-warrior>worker>settler>finish warrior>warrior>Stonehenge>Settler>Oracle

Tech:
Agr>AH>BW>Myst>Meditation>priesthood>pottery

Early micro:
T0-6 - 2 turns work corn, 5 turns work forest
T7-10 - work corn
T11 - work corn and FP
T12-13 - work corn and sheep
T14 - pop 3 - work corn, sheep and FP - Switch to worker
T15 - work corn, sheep and FP Worker 1 finishes road on FP
T16 - Worker 1: 1 turn in road N of cap
T17 - Worker 1: start cow pasture
T18 - Worker 2: finishes road N of cap - Switch build to settler
T19 - Worker 2: to forest - pasture finishes - city works corn,sheep,cow
T20 - Worker 2: chop - Worker 1 to forest Worker 2 is on
T21 - Workers finish chop - Settler at EOT
T22 - Workers each go to separate forest - city completes warrior
T23 - Workers each chop - city builds 1T warrior
T24 - City grows to 4 - start Stonehenge - city works corn,sheep,cow,grassforesthill
T25 - Chops in
T26 - Both Workers to grassforesthill
T27 - Stonehenge completes - Settler started - Both workers start mine - city works corn,sheep,cow, FP, riverside grass for extra commerce
T28 -
T29 - Mine finished, chop in - Settler complete EOT - 1 worker to forest
Now here's where the timing gets tricky. If we settled the 2nd city we may not have Priesthood on turn 30 like I do in the Sandbox. But Sandbox says:
T30 - City starts oracle - Worker 1 starts chop - Worker 2 moves to forest.
T31 - Worker 2 starts chop
T32 - Worker 1 chop in
T33 - Worker 2 chop in
T34 - Oracle complete
During these last 4 turns I was switching between the mine and the river grass in order to get pottery the turn the Oracle completed. I could have gotten Oracle faster but I needed to make sure Pottery cam in too.

The only thing about this plan is that I haven't switched to slavery yet, but if it means a T27 Stonehenge and a T34-35 Oracle with 3 cities I'm quite happy with that.

[Serdoa]

Guys, what difficulty are you on?