Huayna Capac of Khmer

[Mortius]

I've just added the link to both simulations in excel format in my former post.

If someone wants to try, go ahead

There may still be room for improvement.

EDIT:
I can also add the link here

[SIZE="4"]Early Deer vs Early Sheep - excel format[/SIZE]

[Mortius]

One other thing I'm not sure about is the whipping... that leaves us at size 2 with 7-8 turns required to regrow to size 4. That's 7-8 turns we can't build Settlers or Workers for, though I suppose we can always whip again after that. However, whipping also costs us in commerce, when we're dearly in need of speedy tech to get to Pottery and Priesthood quickly.

Post granary whipping is the most efficient way to generate hammers, but even whiping before a granary is still cost efficient.
In our situation, we have only two resources (both very good I must admit ) and we should work them every single turn. Whiping to size 2 we still work that two precious resources, we lost only some mining time. Of course it means hammers, but we earn that hammers through whiping (faster and more).
Besides a single lost coin/turn from a riverside hill (for 3 coins total) I don't see a weak point of this. The only other option is to slow build the Stonehenge, but it would not be cost efficient nor fast.

Regrowth time:
3 turns to size 3
4 turns to size 4

With such a food surplus we should whip whenever we can, at least until we can work something better than hills (like cottages).

Will have to sim out further to determine roughly what we can expect for Oracle times with and without whipping.

Whipping doesn't affect Oracle's timing at all. It is research dependant and by whipping Stonehenge you only loose 3 coins.

Though we should make a decision on improving Deer first vs Sheep first.

The differences between the two builds are meaningless. I will still favor 1 food and 5 hammers above 5 beakers but it's a matter of personal preferences. The true difference is the fact we can fool our opponents with the Deer first build.

Normaly our opponents can easily anticipate what tech path we are heading just by observing the timings of our score growths. Like by observing our score growth on 13 turn they can say with 100% accuracy we have just discovered Animal Husbandry.


With the Deer build, we can research Animal Husbandry on turn 13 but we need it on turn 17 (for the pasture).
We can as well delay Animal Husbandry for 3 turns (teching BW in that time) fooling our oponents we researched Bronze Working first. Then we will finish Bronze Working 3 turns earlier then anticipated fooling them to the next techs we are heading. We can even delay Bronze Working one additional turn (teching Wheel) fooling them even further. That way, by tweaking our techs timings, we can create a fake tech path (like going Mysticism early for discouraging team Gillette) or at least make their Cloak&Dagger department feel

IMO the less they know about us the better.

[Lord Parkin]

I don't think hiding the tech is such a good reason to go with one strategy over the other. Besides, they'll be able to tell about techs like Bronze Working via the soldier count.

[Mortius]

I don't think hiding the tech is such a good reason to go with one strategy over the other.

It's not the reason.

These two builds are almost the same in terms of their outcome. The difference of 5-6 food, hammers or beakers on turn 45 it's just nothing.
We would be good with any of them.

I just pointed out the additional possibilities.

[Mortius]

I did an Oracle sim.
For now, I can only simulate the building of Oracle in the Capital.

What is the outcome:
1. We can build Oracle in our Capital without any additional forests in the fat cross.
2. If one forest grew in the Capital, I would be happy, if not, it's more than enough to just chop two forests outside our borders.
3. With the data we have now, we can be absolutely sure we can land it on 62 turn the latest.
4. I can't predict the exact number of beakers so I just pointed out the probably time we would research techs only.
5. I don't know now, what we would build in the Capital while growing after the Stonehenge, so I just count the number of hammers (it's ???). It can be spears, chariots... whatever.
6. With the whipped granary, our Capital can grow from size 2 after landing Oracle to size 5 in just five turns (if the happy cap will allow)


I don't have time to explain the build now. But it's tweaked to the limits
Like, working deer instead of sheep on turn 11, just to make sure we have a maximum overflow from baracks on turn 61, and still can grow to size 3 on turn 47, to size 4 on turn 51, and to size 5 on turn 55, all with 0 food surplus

[SIZE="4"]Oracle Capital Simulation[/SIZE]

[Lord Parkin]

Seems pretty good, will take a closer look at it later.

I think we don't want to rule out the possibility of chopping out the Oracle in a city other than the capital, though it'll be another 10-20 turns before we know enough about the land to make a firm decision there. A capital Oracle would be great for the stacked great person points, of course. But I think our final decision should be based on the fastest possible build... whether that happens to be in the capital or elsewhere. Still, T62 seems like a very respectable baseline to try to improve on.

[kjn]

With the choice of sheep first vs deer first rapidly coming up, I finally took a look at Mortius's spreadsheet.

I think I found a few errors/inefficiencies in the calculations. The main reason of going sheep first is to get quicker pop growth, and our pop is capped to 4 for the entire set. I will try to get some simming time in today, but are quite busy with an urgent (but boring!) job.

I can tell this, however: by doing a quick sim with auto tile assignment (eg working flood plains instead of deer while improving the deer), and delaying the second worker until size 4, I managed the following on T34:

Animal Farm @ 4
2/28 food box
1 settler built (T34, 105/100)
2 workers built
2 warriors built + starting warrior
6/50 in barracks
1 chop finished (T34) - probably to Worker
AH, BW, Wheel finished, Agri @ 58/85 (OR Fishing 58/57)

We are lagging in tile development and short a warrior, with one mine less and the road network just started, but I think this gives a better start. And Mortius didn't use the finished mines until T31 anyway.

[Mortius]

... by doing a quick sim with auto tile assignment (eg working flood plains instead of deer while improving the deer), and delaying the second worker until size 4...

The whole point of an effective development is to growth, only when you have some improved tiles to work. If you don't, there is no point in investing heavily into food, postponing ... anything, only to gain an additional +1 food/hammer a turn.

In the early game, every round of worker's job is very valuable, and we need every piece of it. We need it for capital's choping and improving, but also for roading towards a second and a third city, and then chopping, and improving them too..., especially if we decide to settle the Gold City early.

Delaying the second worker until size 4, you would hit that size without mined hills, end without workers ready to chop. I personally wouldn't do that just for an additional + 1 hammer/turn.

I managed the following on T34:

Animal Farm @ 4
2/28 food box
1 settler built (T34, 105/100)
2 workers built
2 warriors built + starting warrior
6/50 in barracks
1 chop finished (T34) - probably to Worker
AH, BW, Wheel finished, Agri @ 58/85 (OR Fishing 58/57)

We are lagging in tile development and short a warrior, with one mine less and the road network just started, but I think this gives a better start. And Mortius didn't use the finished mines until T31 anyway.

I am glad to see some sims

It would be nice if these simulations were in such a form that we can compare them easily. If you want to use my spreadsheet, feel free

I am curious to see your sim till turn 50.

[kjn]

I will probably manage to do one or a few this evening. I should mention that there has been quite a bit of chopping in my sim: one went into the second worker, and one into the settler. The last chop came in T34, and is currently unassigned.

So worker-turn wise we are behind one mine and some roading compared to your sims.

[Mortius]

I will probably manage to do one or a few this evening. I should mention that there has been quite a bit of chopping in my sim: one went into the second worker, and one into the settler. The last chop came in T34, and is currently unassigned.

So worker-turn wise we are behind one mine and some roading compared to your sims.

And what about Stonehenge?