I think my approach would be fairly straightforward and conversational. I would introduce myself as being new to the team, but say that my gut reaction upon first seeing the situation was that their city needs to go. I hope this would reinforce to them how seriously we are taking the situation. I think I would then ask them point-blank whether they would most prefer peace or war at this point - peace because they want to focus on development, or war because they want to drain our resources, or because they want to conquer us. I would indicate that an honest answer, not diplomatic double-speak, would best build rapport between their team and this diplomat in particular, and is the only grounds for a diplomatic resolution. With your permission, I would then walk the talk by telling them exactly what our preference is, which is to take Tortuga and then carry on to the rest of their cities (I don't think this is actually possible, but it was our last-known plan. However, I don't want to say it is our plan if it isn't anymore - honest diplomacy). If their preference is peace, hopefully this stick would get them talking. However, we may also need a carrot, because in any case their preference is obviously to keep the city. Back to the message: I would end by telling them that the only possible resolution to the situation from our perspective involves Tortuga either dust or in our hands, and that if they desire a peaceful resolution, they must take that into account. If you think it wise, I might add to this "or [they must] provide compensating advantages" if we want to leave a back door open for diplomacy. The only possible advantages I could see them providing us that would permit us to let them keep the city would be either multiple free settlers to guarantee that we are more developed than them or an agreement that they cannot settle any more cities west of their capital, but we can settle freely east of ours (we would then settle so as to steal Tortuga's resources as I outlined in one of my posts in the other thread), coupled with a long non-aggression pact. To be honest, I think this will be decided on the field of battle - there is little that they would actually be willing to give us that would allow us to leave them the city, and they won't give that up. I think the real diplomacy will come after we take the city, or bust our army trying. Hope the above makes sense.
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Diplo with Pirates
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I should have posted about this yesterday, but do you think you can try to come up with an actual message to them today that we can try to get sent to them before next turn? This is the last chance they have to act for pulling back their forces so that we don't slaughter them all.
Basically about your message that Tortuga needs to either be ours or dust. If they agree to pull back their forces, and leave all of ours alone (such that our warriors in the north can leave their territory), we will agree to raze the city and make a new further south. And by such an agreement, we can then formulate an appropriate border and NAP. Mention that all other nations seem to be settling in a clockwise direction, and with them going the opposite direction that is where the problem lies. If they continue to send units to Tortuga, we will be forced to capture it and continue the battle to conquer them fully. But if they relinquish that land to us, we will let them rebuild in their northern and eastern lands in peace. That's about all I can come up with at this brief moment before running out the door. I'll try to think a bit more while I'm traveling. And if you post a proposed message at some point, I'll at least have time to review it and give my thoughts. Otherwise, we'll end up having to start attacking them with still no communication at all. And we probably shouldn't do that.
October 19th, 2012, 12:55
(This post was last modified: October 19th, 2012, 13:48 by TheHumanHydra.)
All right, I'll get to work on that.
Edit: How about: Pirates, Hello, I'm TheHumanHydra; I'm new to Team Menagerie-trois. We thought that since the war is rapidly approaching the point of no return, it would be appropriate to reopen communications. I believe in straightforward diplomacy, so I will speak frankly; I trust you will do the same: the only possible resolution to this conflict from our perspective involves Tortuga either dust or in our hands. Furthermore, our intention is to carry the war forth from Tortuga into your lands so as to effect the annihilation of your civilization. We offer the following compromise: if you will withdraw your forces from Tortuga and grant ours in and near your territory safe passage, we will raze the city rather than retain it, and settle a new city nearer to our borders. Furthermore, we will agree to a non-aggression pact accompanied by a delineation of borders so as to allow you to settle away from us in peace. In doing so, your settlement would conform to the general pattern of movement clockwise; it is your aggressive deviation therefrom that has caused this conflict. By the way, I like your city names. Sincerely, TheHumanHydra
October 19th, 2012, 16:54
(This post was last modified: October 19th, 2012, 16:55 by HitAnyKey.)
At first glance, that seems ok. I'll think about it some more and see if I have any suggested changes.
Since I'm in airport travel for the next 6 hours or so, if you don't here from me tonight before you are ready to go to bed, feel free to send it. As I'd like to have something sent to them before the next turn.
October 19th, 2012, 22:58
(This post was last modified: October 19th, 2012, 23:01 by TheHumanHydra.)
Message sent:
Pirates, Hello, I'm TheHumanHydra; I'm new to Team Menagerie-trois. We thought that since the war is rapidly approaching the point of no return, it would be appropriate to reopen communications. I believe in straightforward diplomacy, so I will speak frankly; I trust you will do the same: the only possible resolution to this conflict from our perspective involves Tortuga either dust or in our hands. Furthermore, our intention is to carry the war forth from Tortuga into your lands so as to effect the annihilation of your civilization. We offer the following compromise: if you will withdraw your forces from Tortuga and grant ours in and near your territory safe passage home, we will raze the city rather than retain it, and settle a new city nearer to our borders. Furthermore, we will agree to a non-aggression pact accompanied by a reasonable delineation of borders so as to allow you to settle away from our territory in peace. In doing so, your settlement would conform to the general pattern of movement clockwise; it is your aggressive deviation therefrom that is at the root of this conflict. Sincerely, TheHumanHydra P.S. I like your city names. -- - Team Menagerie-trois Only minor textual changes. It probably won't affect the Pirates for this turn, as they're playing it right now; we'll probably hear from them after their turn is over.
Just posting it here too for team discussion for what we will do as a reply.
So one of the members of Pirates emailed me directly. Either he didn’t see the message we had sent them, or he chose to ignore it and try sending something separate. Obviously this is nothing we can agree on. That city absolutely cannot remain in their hands. I don’t know why they would think we would even consider allowing such a thing. THH, if you want to start up a draft of an actual reply to this message, please do. Otherwise, I’ll try to do so at lunch or something. I’m not sure what the best type of message is yet. One possibility could be stating that since they ignored our previous message and killed our northern warrior already, and have no pulled back their troops, that we will take the city and keep it. If they want to propose something to us for a NAP, giving us some concessions to appease us such that we will not continue north to conquer them, then we will entertain a possible NAP. Or something like that. Also, we should send the reply from our team mailbox. And send it to their team mailbox (and copy this guy below). Maybe this guy doesn't have access to the team mailbox, and the person that does hasn't been active on the team lately. ----------------------------------------------------------- Dear M3, At this point it seems obvious that we can't stop you from taking Tortuga. We offer you congratulations on your military success. However, as long as this war continues, it will be a massive drain on your economy and the other teams will get farther and farther ahead. We would like to ask that you allow us to keep Tortuga. To put it bluntly, if we lose Tortuga, there is no way for us to compete in this game long-term. However, we can still make your life difficult by , and making it as expensive as we possibly can for you to conquer us. If you accept, we can work together to grow and prosper. Our proposal for peace is simple: you withdraw from Tortuga, and we will make no attempt to settle any further towards your capital. We can discuss an exact border if you wish. We will also work together to help you out as much as possible, and would like an NAP for 100 turns. This is the best chance our teams have to make an economic comeback in this game. Sincerely, luddite, Team Pirates -----------------------------------------------
They speak at last! You can certainly draft something if you'd like at lunch; I'll have a lot of time to draft something this afternoon after my seminar. Obviously we aren't going to negotiate away any chance at taking Tortuga. We probably should discuss what we realistically want to do after taking Tortuga; we don't want to negotiate away any chance of doing that either! Should we go for broke and try and conquer them? It's four turns' march from Tortuga to Barbados and they only have a spear right now (obviously they'll have more by the time we get there).
October 25th, 2012, 17:14
(This post was last modified: October 25th, 2012, 17:21 by TheHumanHydra.)
A draft, for your consideration:
Pirates, Thank you for your frank reply; I shall continue in the same spirit. First, I would like to remind you of our statement in our previous message: "the only possible resolution to this conflict from our perspective involves Tortuga either dust or in our hands." We see this as the only reasonable basis for negotiation. Second, our economy is not suffering; furthermore, the surest route to economic advancement we can see is to absorb your cities into our empire. To abandon this path, we will require sufficient compensatory advantages. Finally, we disagree that you will be unable to compete without Tortuga, if you devote all your energies to settlement in the east. Furthermore, you can save your present army if you withdraw peacefully from Tortuga now, and provide us reason not to press onward. In such a situation, your offer of future assistance and would be graciously accepted. Sincerely, TheHumanHydra The last sentence is just me trying to close and is rather rude; it should be changed. The last section starting with "finally" should only be included if we really mean to offer them peace; otherwise, I will come up with a different ending. Anyway, it's a start. What do you think? P.S. I find it funny how I always start out meaning to sound natural and conversational and then end up coming off as an imperious son-of-a-Brit (which I am). Let me know if I need to change my tone. (Like, I'm not even roleplaying, that's just how it comes out!)
October 26th, 2012, 10:04
(This post was last modified: October 26th, 2012, 10:07 by HitAnyKey.)
I think that message seems pretty good. I do agree that the last sentence should be changed or simply removed. It just doesn’t really seem to fit, not that it seems rude. At this point, I’m already of the opinion that there is almost nothing they can offer us such that we would raze the city. We are going to capture and keep it. They settled a city that infringed on our source of Ivory.
Personally I would have rather had our Ivory city a little closer to our capital, mainly for ease of protecting it, but having it out that far on a hill is not too bad either. At this point, I’m thinking our next city needs to be out that way. I’m leaning towards the next to the sheep south of the tile between the two peaks. This would give it access to the river corn, the dear, the sheep, and also be able to work the gold when Tortuga isn’t. Or we put it right between the peaks such that it can work the Ivory when Tortuga isn’t (putting it out of range of the Corn, but leaving the ability to settle another city on the river that gets that corn). A city on that grass hill 2 W of the Corn would be a good one too. So if we had a city on that hill and on the tile between the two peaks….that’s a pretty good layout I think, at least at first glance. But anyway, back to the message. I think just removing that last sentence for now might be enough of a change. Basically leaving the message ending on a statement that essentially tells them to negotiate us a reason not to press onward. I do think it would be a good idea to offer peace to them after we take Tortuga (if they give us something in return...such as allowing us to capture one of their workers, or something). Moving that far NE with our army will REALLY stretch us thin, and will essentially keep us from getting our Great Lighthouse (possibly) and really make it difficult to get the techs we need for various things. For example, it will make Pottery take a long time, and we really need to start getting out cottages. |
