[SPOILERS] This Is Asgard! A Tale of Post-Ragnarok Midgard

[oledavy]

Are those resources pigs? What yield to they provide?

What does sacred paths do?

The pigs are truffles, a new happiness resource included in G&K.

Sacred Paths gives you 1 culture on every jungle tile.

[oledavy]

Hey T-Hawk, what's the RA formula these days?

I'm not sure exactly. Something about the total beaker production of you and your partner over the time span of the RA. Search on Civfanatics.

Alrighty, just wanted to check if you knew off the top of your head first.

[SevenSpirits]

The pigs are truffles, a new happiness resource included in G&K.

!

What improvement do they take?

[oledavy]

The pigs are truffles, a new happiness resource included in G&K.

!

What improvement do they take?

They take camps. So, I got two trapping luxuries. Pretty much the worst I could end up with actually, mining ones are so much better, and calendar is more on my tech path. Tried doing a little micro on this start yesterday...and...it's going to be difficult. All that jungle is going to be really annoying. While this is by no stretch a bad start (not on par with fire&ice's from PBEM1), it's not particularly good either. It's going to be very slow to get up and running. If universities came earlier than Education (for making each jungle worth 2 science), it would be pretty nice...but they don't. And at any rate, you can't subsist on culture and science alone even if they did. I'm seriously considering switching my initial plans and going for Liberty - the worker improvement bonus would be a big help in clearing that jungle/building trading posts down the road.

[oledavy]

Turn 3

Alrighty, let's talk about my game, see if I can work some magic with this start.

So, for those of you who don't know, Korea gets a tech boost anytime a scientific wonder or building is constructed in your capital. I cannot find a confirmation of the 'scientific' wonder list anywhere online (so if anyone does, please point me towards it), but here are the buildings/wonders that I can think of:

Library
University
Observatory (No Mountain, so cannot build)
Research Lab
The Great Library
The Porcelain Tower
The Hubble Space Telescope
National College
Oxford University

As for how the tech boost works, it's basically a free research agreement (and can also be modified by the Porcelain Tower and the Social Policy in Rationalism (Free Thought I think). Whenever I find the formula for RAs in G&K, I will post that too (there is an appalling lack of definitive Civ5 information posted online). I'm pretty sure it's a factor of your BPT scaled over a number of turns though - which would mean you could potentially inflate your RA worth by running lots of scientists a few turns before it comes in. I'll have to keep that in mind.

At any rate, the wonder that is extremely good for Korea to bat is the Great Library, which I bolded above. Why is it so good? Well, again, for those who are unaware, here is what are it's stats:

The Great Library
1 free tech
A free library in the city where it's built (saves 1gpt)
1 culture
3 science
1 GS point
123 hammers.

So, when I build the Great Library as Korea, I not only get the free tech from the library itself, but I get a tech boost for building the wonder and another one for the library. So, basically, Korea can sink 123 hammers into getting 3 techs total, along with some other goodies. This is an absurdly good deal. The GL is a fairly mediocre wonder for other civs, but for Korea it is extremely strong.

The problem, this is an extremely awful start for building wonders, and I mean godawful. Even more so with Egypt in the game. Look at the map, and tell me where any production is in my first or second ring that I don't have to chop a jungle to get at:



A little hard to tell from that screenshot, but the nearest hills that aren't buried in jungle are in my third ring.

Also, note I finally found some ancient ruins! I'm going to skip over that peninsula to the south for now, because it would take far too much time out of my warrior's scouting to check it out. I'm pretty sure from fog reading that there is no land past those too hills.

Anyway, back to how to play this start.

The one thing this start does having going for it is lots of gold from all those riverside tiles and camp resources. If this was SP, I would love playing out this start. I could leave all those jungles up, build a university, get the SP that adds 1 science to Trading posts, build trading posts in all those jungles, and each of those tiles would be worth: 2 food, 1 gold, 3 science, 1 culture. That is an absurdly good tile. And given that this is the capital, where NC will eventually go, that means a citizen working one of those tiles is significantly better than running a scientist (which is even buffed for me as Korea! [+2 science per specialist]). However, the lack of production and food is going to make for a very hard early game, which is ultimately more important here in MP.

So, my priorities here are many:

1. I need a shrine ASAP to leverage into Sacred Paths so I can redeem some of that jungle.
2. I need a granary ASAP because there is no food at this start.
3. I need a worker to chop and mine for the GL.
4. I could use an additional scout.

I'm definitely building a shrine the moment pottery comes in. My shrine will complete on turn 10, and provided Serdoa gets his pantheon on Turn 13 as I expect him to (courtesy of his Pyramid UB), I can land mine on t20. The question is what to in the interval between now and then. Do I:

A. Build a scout?
B. Sink some hammers into a monument?
C. Sink some hammers into a worker?

At the moment I'm leaning towards a scout. A scout would give me greater probability of popping ancient ruins (the culture one would be amazing as always. It would also mean I rake in the 135-270 gold from meeting city-states faster and find natural wonders faster. The downside is that it would push me past my free unit support threshold and cost me an extra gpt.

As for what I build after the shrine, it's going to depend almost entirely on what my scouts pop from huts. Hell, I could get faith next turn from those ruins and a shrine would be unnecessary.

As for SPs, I'm leaning towards Tradition at the moment. The opener is good no matter what game you intend to play. Aristocracy will shave a turn or two off the Great Library, and landed elite will be really awesome for this food poor start. I might do a hybrid tradition/liberty approach though. provided I get Sacred paths, I'll have plenty of culture to mess around with. Again though, it will come down in large part to my pulls from ancient ruins. Tech path will be mining -> writing next.

In order to build GL, I think I'm going to have to buy a couple of those hills into my culture and have my worker chop/mine them.

We'll see what I can end up working out. I'm going to withhold further attempts to strategize until I get my ancient ruin pulls in though.

End Turn.

[oledavy]

I think I'm going to plant a city on that stone at some point.

[yuris125]

In vanilla jungle tiles produce 2 science each with University, isn't it the same in G&K?

Considering production-poor start and Egypt in the game, is even worth it to try TGLib? Do you get a better boost from the wonder than from a normal Library? I would be inclined to concentrate on expansion - if the capital is not very good, build a better city elsewhere

I like the idea of another Scout, ruins seem to be more important than anything else in the early game

[oledavy]

Blargh, pulled a map



Azza and Serdoa both got a pop from ruins I believe.

[T-hawk]

I believe Porcelain Tower and Hubble out of your list don't count for Korea. The rule is any building that adds or multiplies beakers. And you missed the Public School.

Korea's boost is not nearly as strong as you think, though. The research agreement formula depends on the beaker productivity of you and your partner... and in this case there is no partner. Korea's boost yielded very small amounts of beakers in the one G&K game I played with them, only about 140 each for the library and university around the Education timeframe. It's definitely not 3 entirely free techs out of the Great Library.

As for builds, yes you need a scout. And if you're leaning Tradition, you can skip the monument and take it from Legalism. I don't think hybrid Liberty - Tradition works well, though. Both trees have their biggest value in the finisher which you want ASAP. Sacred Paths is only somewhat helpful, remember you have to work otherwise unexciting 2-0-1 jungle to get the culture.

[oledavy]

I believe Porcelain Tower and Hubble out of your list don't count for Korea. The rule is any building that adds or multiplies beakers. And you missed the Public School.

Korea's boost is not nearly as strong as you think, though. The research agreement formula depends on the beaker productivity of you and your partner... and in this case there is no partner. Korea's boost yielded very small amounts of beakers in the one G&K game I played with them, only about 140 each for the library and university around the Education timeframe. It's definitely not 3 entirely free techs out of the Great Library.

As for builds, yes you need a scout. And if you're leaning Tradition, you can skip the monument and take it from Legalism. I don't think hybrid Liberty - Tradition works well, though. Both trees have their biggest value in the finisher which you want ASAP. Sacred Paths is only somewhat helpful, remember you have to work otherwise unexciting 2-0-1 jungle to get the culture.

I believe Porcelain Tower and Hubble out of your list don't count for Korea. The rule is any building that adds or multiplies beakers. And you missed the Public School.

Oye, so I did. That makes sense with the wonders.

Korea's boost is not nearly as strong as you think, though. The research agreement formula depends on the beaker productivity of you and your partner... and in this case there is no partner. Korea's boost yielded very small amounts of beakers in the one G&K game I played with them, only about 140 each for the library and university around the Education timeframe. It's definitely not 3 entirely free techs out of the Great Library.

Well now I'm feeling more and more shitty about my pick.

Shoulda taken China or France

And if you're leaning Tradition, you can skip the monument and take it from Legalism. I don't think hybrid Liberty - Tradition works well, though. Both trees have their biggest value in the finisher which you want ASAP. Sacred Paths is only somewhat helpful, remember you have to work otherwise unexciting 2-0-1 jungle to get the culture.

I think if I went straight to sacred paths I could make a hybrid SP opening work. However, I've since decided to go straight tradition, and skip the monument for legalism. My original reason for building a monument before legalism was to allow me to GLib Drama & Poetry, get the free ampitheater, and run an artist for a super early GA (getting 2 bpt on the specialist and the tile improvement). However, if I'm skipping GLib, I can't make that work as well. I think I'm going to go granary next, instead of shrine. growth > culture. Hopefully I land a faith ruins so I can have my cake and eat it.

I'm not a huge fan of sacred paths, I just see it as one of the few viable ways to redeem this start. I'm not going to be able to chop all that jungle for awhile, so I might as well improve my yields on it. Until I get some improved tiles to work, my default is going to be working the 2-0-1 jungle tiles because there is nothing better to put my citizens on.

I'm still really annoyed with pulling a map from that hut