[Spoilers] PB12 Lurker Thread: Where everyone blames the mapmaker

[Oxyphenbutazone]

Nah, I wasn't offending or anything, it was meant more as a joke...

[suttree]

I like how many players have stone nearby. They think they are special, but they are not.

To the players who might read this at some point: You have to consider the possibility that the mapmaker does not like you, never wanted you, in all probability he hates you. YOU ARE NOT UNIQUE SNOWFLAKES.

[fluffyflyingpig]

This is all Krill's fault

[Lord Parkin]

Video looking at the starts for each player, and how that factored into their leader and civ picks. As usual, I always talk too much and go on for too long...

Clicked thinking "so maybe ten minutes"?

12:48 "...just gonna go through and look real quickly at each of the starts, probably not in as much detail as I did with that first one..."

With the Mali start, my inclination would be to found 2W of the Sheep (1N of your spot). One tile off the coast, which hurts a bit, but the 2 golds and 2 food resources are hard to turn down. [Slowcheetah founding so as to not pick up even a single Gold though... rather painful to see. ]

With the English start, I was very surprised you didn't settle on the Banana. My gut feeling is that would work out much better than settling in place. [Nice to see Gavagai did this.]

With Carthage, I would have at least considered settling on the Dyes. [Looks like Sian did this.]

Otherwise you pretty much echoed my thoughts.

[Sullla]

For the Mali start, I liked the idea of being on the coast and getting a 3 food lake tile later on with lighthouse. Does that outweigh the possibility of getting a second gold tile though? I'm not sure. I would have to simulate this in more detail to compare. There's no doubt that the actual spot chosen (on the wines) that claimed neither gold tile was a horrible waste of an amazing start.

There actually is a logic to not settling on the bananas for the England start: the extra river commerce from working the banana tile (3/0/1) allows you to finish researching Bronze Working in 15 turns, the same time that the worker comes out. Again, I did not go through and test these starts in more detail, or it would have been an even longer video. I don't know if settling on bananas and working the clams or something might come out ahead. In any case, I said all this stuff about how Gavagi intelligently picked a Fishing/Mining civ to take advantage of that position... and then he opened by researching Mysticism. Whoops. Looks like the England civ pick was more of a coincidence than anything else.

On the dyes was indeed the best spot for Persia, agreed. That was a mistake by me.

[Lord Parkin]

For the Mali start, I liked the idea of being on the coast and getting a 3 food lake tile later on with lighthouse. Does that outweigh the possibility of getting a second gold tile though? I'm not sure. I would have to simulate this in more detail to compare. There's no doubt that the actual spot chosen (on the wines) that claimed neither gold tile was a horrible waste of an amazing start.

Indeed... I just can't understand his logic, with a single seafood resource trumping 2 Gold when food is plentiful. Worse, he lost the Sheep in the swap for the inferior Crab.

In any case, I said all this stuff about how Gavagi intelligently picked a Fishing/Mining civ to take advantage of that position... and then he opened by researching Mysticism. Whoops. Looks like the England civ pick was more of a coincidence than anything else.

Yeah, it does seem that way. Several other civs making similar mistakes though, so maybe it'll balance out. (Until the veteran team runs away...)

Did you know that if you found on a plains hill, you get an extra hammer on your city tile?

Yes I am perfectly aware of that, however it is not on fresh water, so I can only grow the city to a size of 2 before it becomes unhealthy.

I love that he knew about the bonus hammer from settling on a plains hill, but the decision making factor was the health difference. That disproportionate concern over health reminds me of the first few games I played many years ago. Though I did always check the health bar in my city screen, rather than doing the calculation in the dark and forgetting about forests.

[Lord Parkin]

How strong is gold immediately at the capital though?

Very. Especially since Mali starts with Mining + The Wheel... all the tools to hook up the Gold right away.

Any of the capitals Slow could have settled using the gold would be very light on food if they had to work the gold all the time, just 1 FP and dry corn.

You missed the Sheep... quite reasonable food content. In fact, only 1 less early bonus food (lost flood plain) than the spot he settled in, and that spot doesn't allow the ability to swap on and off the Golds for insane early research.

Moreover, the Crab (which he substituted for the superior Sheep) requires an early tech (Fishing) which he otherwise wouldn't need.

Furthermore, it would he would have to either waste a FP tile or move for 2 turns, getting essentially a 17-turn worker build.

Destroying a flood plain always hurts, but consider the bigger picture. A Corn-Sheep-flood plain-double Gold capital with immediate +1 happiness and early +2 happiness (Forges) is pretty superb. Always consider: if the tile I was settling on was desert, would it still be a site worth settling? In this case, absolutely.

As it is, settling on the wines gives him a 2 hammer/ 2 commerce plant while also redeeming an otherwise pretty crappy tile. He now gets a 14-turn worker build, but there was also a decent chance of his capital having a 2-hammer tile for an even quicker worker.

The +1 hammer and +1 commerce at the capital is a small bonus that would give a slight edge for the first couple of dozen turns, but after that the double Gold spot would quickly catch up and blaze ahead.

It also picks up an extra food resource.

No it doesn't, it substitutes a superior food resource for an inferior one.

If he settles his second city by the gold/sheep he can still benefit from the early commerce infusion, without slowing the development of his capital.

But timing is everything. Bonus commerce and happiness in the 20's and 30's is far more valuable than in the 50's or 60's.

EDIT: Weird, where did your post go? Apparently I'm replying to a ghost.

[Oxyphenbutazone]

Sorry, I realized I misread the screenshot, not seeing the sheep was accessible by the capital on the FP which of course invalidated my entire post

Obviously, a capital on the FP is superior

[novice]

Destroying a flood plain always hurts, but consider the bigger picture. A Corn-Sheep-flood plain-double Gold capital with immediate +1 happiness and early +2 happiness (Forges) is pretty superb. Always consider: if the tile I was settling on was desert, would it still be a site worth settling? In this case, absolutely.

Seems like the wrong way to think about it, since the answer will always be yes. If the tile were desert, settling on it would always be just as good, but the alternative spots would all be worse than if the tile were a flood plain.

[Lord Parkin]

Destroying a flood plain always hurts, but consider the bigger picture. A Corn-Sheep-flood plain-double Gold capital with immediate +1 happiness and early +2 happiness (Forges) is pretty superb. Always consider: if the tile I was settling on was desert, would it still be a site worth settling? In this case, absolutely.

Seems like the wrong way to think about it, since the answer will always be yes. If the tile were desert, settling on it would always be just as good, but the alternative spots would all be worse than if the tile were a flood plain.

I guess that wasn't the best way of putting it. I was trying to convey that one should never rule out the possibility of a city site just because it's on a flood plain (or 1 tile from a coast, etc). Sure those places are usually best avoided if possible, but in some situations it can be the case that destroying a flood plain (or accumulating several dead coast tiles) is a better move than all the available alternatives.