EARLY ALPHA - Name TBD

[Tasunke]

Railroads, Aircraft, and ICBMs certainly add a level of mobility not seen in FFH2 ... but only the nuke can compare with some of the stronger spells in FFH2 imho.

Also ... Raiders trait .... Free commando on all relevant (non siege) units ... yeah ....

------> Thanks for the insight on the Steel/Railroad path, although I did have a somewhat different alteration in mind.

And yea, I do agree about destroyers .... already saw that, had intermediate cruiser unit planned (already added? I'll have to check) that comes in just a bit earlier. Honestly the jump from Wooden Ships to Destroyers is just so severe ... and it wasn't even exactly how things happened. I mean sure, there was a period of 50-80 years where Naval tech just SKYROCKETED ... but that doesn't mean you have to go from 8 str to 30 str :D ... that's kinda silly.

--> even with Ironclad intermediate, its silly

[Tasunke]

I'd like some feedback concerning ArcD'Triomph and Heroic Epic especially.

HE -> Might not need to be changed

ArcD'Triomph could simply be an additional source of mil prod from a national wonder .... (could be changed from land prod to mil prod, if ppl are fine with HE being changed)

If HE does need to be reduced to include Triomph however .... this would be in part due to spacing out the Heroic Epic's overall bonus, and in part as a result of removing the Level requirements of pretty much everything.

If we did halve the HE mil prod bonus, regardless of what else is added to it, it should probably be reduced from 200 hammers to 100 hammers imho.

Meanwhile ArcD'Triomph could be 200/250+ hammers (or possibly more?) ---> But here is the thing. The National Wonder getting a Golden Age, in addition to Taj Mahal being moved to Divine Right, reduces the exclusionary attractiveness of the Taj.

Having the Taj come at the same tech as a new civic makes it especially potent. Ergo having it at Divine Right makes sense, imho, for just about any version of Civ. (not to mention that it was built by an Islamic Leader, and had nothing to do with Nationalism)

[Qgqqqqq]

I don't think aircraft and ICBMs are comparable. They're simply a highly mobile form of collateral, which FFH has in spades in all sorts of different forms (puppets uber alles, of course, but also 4-move Elohim Ritualists, any sort of raider unit, high-reaching maelstrom and fireball mages, and so on).

Railroads is just a silly thing to say. They offer 10 moves flat within borders (or without with comando, which is obviously more prevalent in FFH), and late game infantry can nearly match that easily with mobility/haste/engineering for 9 internal moves. But cavalry, recon, and summons can go far higher, even discounting special units. Cavalry are 6 base with maximum generic boosts, for 18 internal moves.

And that's discounting unique units or abilities, from Raider, to Sidar, to Hippus and so on, as well as the fact that FFH simply eats BTS for breakfast as soon as it's minimum 3-move, spell casting armies move into enemy borders.

Naval they're actually roughly equal, iirc. I'm pretty sure Galleons are around 5-7 moves before promotions, and then there's longshoremen, air1, circumnavigation (potentially) and the two navigation promos (which are easier to get with xp options) although it might be after, and one of the higher units pushes that up. But where naval FFH trumps BTS is in the use of the alpha strike. In BTS, the only units that can reach beyond the first layer of coastal tiles are great generals with a free promotion. In FFH, literally any unit can do so with the help of a single body adept. And it gets worse! Because FFH units aren't limited to one tile inland, by saving up mobility promotions they can reach further, to 3 tiles maximum, barring special abilities. Also, there's no need for the amphibious promo, because every unit can land next to a city and be use their haste to attack instantly. Haste also means you can chain armies across the lengths of the seas, and still have them attack on the same turn. And there's also collateral which can be cast from ships...

And so on and so forth. The reason you haven't seen late game naval is a) because only 1 in 5 or so FFH games get anywhere close to late game and b) because we don't play maps that are very supportive of naval. If you want to see a brief scratching of the surface of naval tactics, check out my '39 thread.


Basically, and with all due respect, you're flat-out wrong here. FFH is more mobile than BTS at every level of play, certainly starting early but also finishing at a higher threshold. The only BTS technology it lacks an equivalent is railroads (something which most non-pure modmods change in some way), and even there the BTS advantage is obliviated by other DFH advantages.

[Tasunke]

what Q said

[RefSteel]

Yeah, nothing in RtR allows the kind of mobility you can achieve in FfH. In base BtS however, there is this one end-game unit...

I don't think FfH has a unit that can strike literally anywhere on the map, hitting every unit on the target tile and on all eight surrounding tiles, with no damage limit, while also destroying city infrastructure and tile improvements, on a mass-produceable unit. That's the BtS ICBM.

[Tasunke]

Eh ... there is this one little spell that can simultaneously destroy every enemy unit in the game .... given certain conditions.

And at AC 100, every living unit has at least a 50% chance of dying, even dragons and heroes can die, just due to the AC.

and several other spells have similar (if limited) effects of the above two situations. Including a buildable ritual.

And yet, even as we have the SDI in BTS, we have certain ways a clever player can counter these certainly tragic end-game/ mid-game events.



-----> The points German Joey made, however, were duly processed ... that if one were to break the 3-move rule, it would have to be with due justification. Even Helicopters, which can fly! seem to only move 4 tiles per turn. And even the drop range of paratroopers seems somewhat limited (at least in base BTS) although the mechanic itself is certainly impressive.

If you look at the first PBEM I was in, I was having to attempt a defense vs Raiders cavalry .... might be worth a good read.

Granted, in his case, his army had a base movement of 4 .... and a threatened road-range of 12.

[Qgqqqqq]

Yeah, nothing in RtR allows the kind of mobility you can achieve in FfH. In base BtS however, there is this one end-game unit...

I don't think FfH has a unit that can strike literally anywhere on the map, hitting every unit on the target tile and on all eight surrounding tiles, with no damage limit, while also destroying city infrastructure and tile improvements, on a mass-produceable unit. That's the BtS ICBM.

Yeah, I nearly made a correction with regards to nukes. Still, the one-off usage, high cost - both startup and per-unit - and lack of flexibility work against it, in comparison to some high-end FFH units.

Anyway, it's foolish to compare exhaustively - they're different games, and some of the things that make their equivalent high-end units so advantegeous is the meta they each play in (the focus on individual cities and much more stagnant/static defense boosting ICBMs in base, for example).

[GermanJoey]

I don't think aircraft and ICBMs are comparable. They're simply a highly mobile form of collateral, which FFH has in spades in all sorts of different forms (puppets uber alles, of course, but also 4-move Elohim Ritualists, any sort of raider unit, high-reaching maelstrom and fireball mages, and so on).

Railroads is just a silly thing to say. They offer 10 moves flat within borders (or without with comando, which is obviously more prevalent in FFH), and late game infantry can nearly match that easily with mobility/haste/engineering for 9 internal moves. But cavalry, recon, and summons can go far higher, even discounting special units. Cavalry are 6 base with maximum generic boosts, for 18 internal moves.

And that's discounting unique units or abilities, from Raider, to Sidar, to Hippus and so on, as well as the fact that FFH simply eats BTS for breakfast as soon as it's minimum 3-move, spell casting armies move into enemy borders.

Naval they're actually roughly equal, iirc. I'm pretty sure Galleons are around 5-7 moves before promotions, and then there's longshoremen, air1, circumnavigation (potentially) and the two navigation promos (which are easier to get with xp options) although it might be after, and one of the higher units pushes that up. But where naval FFH trumps BTS is in the use of the alpha strike. In BTS, the only units that can reach beyond the first layer of coastal tiles are great generals with a free promotion. In FFH, literally any unit can do so with the help of a single body adept. And it gets worse! Because FFH units aren't limited to one tile inland, by saving up mobility promotions they can reach further, to 3 tiles maximum, barring special abilities. Also, there's no need for the amphibious promo, because every unit can land next to a city and be use their haste to attack instantly. Haste also means you can chain armies across the lengths of the seas, and still have them attack on the same turn. And there's also collateral which can be cast from ships...

And so on and so forth. The reason you haven't seen late game naval is a) because only 1 in 5 or so FFH games get anywhere close to late game and b) because we don't play maps that are very supportive of naval. If you want to see a brief scratching of the surface of naval tactics, check out my '39 thread.


Basically, and with all due respect, you're flat-out wrong here. FFH is more mobile than BTS at every level of play, certainly starting early but also finishing at a higher threshold. The only BTS technology it lacks an equivalent is railroads (something which most non-pure modmods change in some way), and even there the BTS advantage is obliviated by other DFH advantages.

Railroads make a big difference; a morale Commando cavalry or tank (both available in PB18) can potentially raze a city 28 tiles away from where it starts the turn. (Don't forget that units that unload into an allied city or fort can move out immediately) Mobile Artilleries can collateral 22 spaces away, Submarines 12 spaces away (which can collateral from the sea just like your fireball mages or whatever), etc. I believe FFH2 Galleons are only 3 base moves, by the way. I'll admit that I forgot about how abusable the Haste spell can be, which is particularly broken for the two main reasons you mention (but then everything in FFH2 is broken). Many players already consider galleon-chaining as borderline cheating, but to allow units to attack on the same turn that they're loaded? That's just plain stupid. If it seems like I'm reacting strongly to your mod, Tasunke, it is because it seems to have an unspoken goal of "lets make RtR more like FFH2," which is anathema to me.

My main point, which I don't think I was very clear about, is that all this insane mobility is STUPID. Managing your logistics while trying to predict and overcome your opponents' is a huge part of both Civ4's economy and warfare, and is in fact the main way the two concepts connect together. It is a core part of the game, and eliminating it takes a lot away a lot of what makes Civ4 interesting. It is STUPID that I can make a new suicide unit, warp it across the map, and attack with it on the same turn it was created. That this kind of absurdity only happens in BTS's very endgame is acceptable (although IMHO railroads and ships should still have their mobility nerfed even with this consideration) because its there to *force* the game to end - it is the ruleset's desperate way of saying "you guys STILL haven't reached a conclusion? Y'all still turtling in a stalemate? Well, what if we pull out all the stops?" Unfortunately, a side effect of this is that it takes a huge toll on the players' time and sanity. This endgame-phase should not be made even more extreme and it should not be pushed even earlier into the game.

[Tasunke]

eh, sorry to burst your bubble but .... Railroads only travel 10 tiles, regardless of speed. A 2 move unit doesn't move 20 tiles on a railroad, it still moves 10 tiles.

At most, perhaps, a Commando unit could move 5 tiles on its own land, and then 10 tiles on an enemy Railroad.

Max Commando movement tiles in BTS = 15/ (5 road + 10 RR)

Max Commando tiles in FFH2 = 21 (a 4 mover with Mobility 1+2, and Haste, w/ Commando moving on enemy roads)

[Tasunke]

I'm not making BTS more like FFH2, so that particular criticism (of the mod) is meaningless, but the assertion is a bit insulting. I already have FFH2, I don't need another clone of FFH.

I wanted Keshiks switched to Knights because the Mongols arrived in the 1200s AD, not the 400s AD like the Huns. And they were facing off against Knights and Longbows and Pikes and Crossbows.

I wanted the Impis switched to Pikemen because the Zulus weren't "that" far behind the tech tree when the English invaded ....

And when the Germans invented Blitzkrieg, it wasn't the speed of their tanks, but the speed of their infantry that dictated the blitz (although they did have a lot of help from motorcycles and Radio, it was their classic Infantry that moved as fast as it did due to Coordination-> and boy howdy, the fact that they could communicate (for the first time) via radio, exponentially increased that level of coordination. That is what likely led to the blitzkreig ... the Radio)

It is a common misconception that the tanks had to wait on the infantry to catch up, in fact, it was not infantry that was the limiting factor of speed, but quite simply, supply lines. Supply (with Railroads), and Encirclement (with Infantry/Tank combined units) were the two primary factors in the Eastern Campaign. The Railroad sabotage by partisans against the Germans hurt their war effort due to matters of re-supply. They would have also been important if Germany had needed to ship units from one front to the other, but they didn't help the actual spearhead of the Blitz. (in my opinon, Commando should never be allowed to use RRs, but a max of road-speed, alas) (And yes, re-supply includes sending reinforcements to the front, in the form of troops/ munitions/ Oil/ Food/ Shoes)- if I were a betting man, Munitions, Oil, and Food were the most important factors, while for the most part the Blitz was fought with the units that started it, with perhaps a few changes in manpower via new recruits/casualties.