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Some general feedback

I've played 3 complete games since I first posted this, and have a bit more to say:

1.) In my second game, I played a blue/white + astrologer + alchemy combo. Three notable things here:

a.) Astrologer + Uranus' Blessing is pretty amazing, as it's giving you 21 skill power city (on top of 26 power income, at full development) for the cost of 7 mana per turn. (and plus it's a pretty decent city defense enchantment). I had 6 core cities with amplifying towers (thanks to some early power spending on research to nap Inspirations), and then took another 6 with them from an overseas invasion of kali (who was playing klackons, and had amp towers every size 5 city). That's 252 overland casting power and ~300 power income by itself! Add in Aether Binding, and man I had a ton of casting skill in this game. Then again, I was spending most of it on city enchantments, heh, after I stopped bother with unit enchantments (see below), so who knows how much good it actually did me. Did get some sick very rare global enchantments into play later though, such as Suppress Magic and...

b.) Enlightenment is super nuts. I had thought Aether Binding was a hell of a deal to give you hundreds of virtual power every turn, but then, on the first turn I cast Enlightenment, my research went from like 200 rp/turn to 800! (a strange thing though: it didn't show up on the meter until I went into each town individually). By the time the game ended, I was pulling in around 1500 RP per turn at 0% slider.

c.) (Apologies in advance if I get a bit ranty here)

Obviously, with life and sorcery I tried stacking unit enchantments again, and again felt very frustrated with the current dispel behavior. In this game, there were no runemasters (Horus was Archmage/Myrran, Kali and Sharee were both Conjurer/Artificer, idr what Ariel was but Kali murdered her by like 1404), and, although a couple wizards did cast Aether Binding, I would quickly disjunction it. So, no extra-powered dispels here. However, my spell locks and high-powered enchantments were still getting stripped effortlessly. To give an example, in my first big battle against Horus he cast dispelling wave, which the description says is half-powered compared to dispel magic, and it stripped off 6 outta my 8 spell locks on units! In the next battle, at his fortress, I saved beforehand and ran an experiment - out of 10 fights, 2 of them saw 4 spell locks die on the first dispelling wave, four fights killed 5 locks, and the remaining four fights killed 6 locks. And, because it was a fortress fight, his follow-up dispelling waves (from his heroes) and dispels (magicians) of course basically stripped my units bare of a couple thousand points of mana (and casting skill) worth of enchantments. I still easily won the fight (and later the game), but man was this so frustrating. Casting enchantments in-battle wasn't much better, as stuff cast at the start of battle would be immediately stripped, and waiting a few turns (for them to blow their skill on other things) might mean the battle is already lost. Despite my massive amount of casting skill in this game, I felt pretty ineffectual casting in battle. To make matters worse, Horus eventually started spamming dispelling wave on the world map at my stacks, which seems to ignore the presence of spell lock completely and strip out whatever enchantments it wants. I quickly gave up bothering with unit enchantments altogether, except against nodes and towers, and a bit of bless spam to bait out dispelling wave at the start of combat against wizards.

I understand that stacking unit enchantments can be very overpowered and thus there needs to be a way to counter it, but there's gotta be a better solution than making them so brittle that they fall off to the slightest touch. Even spell lock... I don't know the dispel formula, but spell-lock says it resists at 150 power, which sounds like a lot more than the maximal 40 dispel power, or the maximal 100 dispelling wave power (which should be like a strength-75 dispel, according to the description). And yet even spell lock can't maintain itself more than 25% of the time! And, without spell lock (a school-specific rare, which you have no guarantee of getting even with several sorcery books), almost no unit enchantment will live past the first round of combat. I don't know... some alternative ideas:

1.) make the overland enchantment cost more
2.) weaken the effects of various unit enchantments
3.) maybe even limit the maximum number of enchantments a unit can have on it at any one time (maybe to 4?)
4.) make dispel more effective the more enchantments are stacked onto a unit (say, increasing non-linearly after 2?)

or who knows, but anything's gotta be better than this situation.

You could say that I could take runemaster, but a 2 retort pick shouldn't be required just to use half the spells in two of the realms. It also doesn't really give anything else to enhance a blue or white wizard's life. In contrast, I can still use heavy Chaos magic without channeler, or Nature without conjurer - it'll just be expensive. I know runemaster gives a huge discount on research and casting the SoM, but I've always tried to avoid that victory condition regardless of my situation because it is still maximally tedious to achieve a SoM victory. And then there's the fact that if the enemy has runemaster (or has Aether Binding in play before you get disjunction), then you're right back where you started, with unit enchantments being near useless to you. If you want this retort to essentially be a requirement for using unit enchantments at all, it'd be much better if it lost the arcane bonus and became a 1 retort pick, or perhaps gained some sort of small discount to enchantments if you want it to stay at 2 picks.

2.) Chaos is super crazy when you get to the very rares! Half the spells seem potentially super-overpowered (although expensive), but I guess very rares should be about that. Call Chaos can cripple whole stacks, Chaos Surge + Doom Mastery + Warp Reality is amazing, and Call the Void is crazy devastating.

3) I had one game where, by chance, no enemy wizard started with the lizardman race. And, by god, the game was so much more enjoyable without having a "carpet of doom" of single javelineers and dragon turtles covering 75% of the tiles in my empire! The late-game actually felt more like a 4X game instead of an infinite tower defense!
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Follow question regarding dispelling: if the dispel formula is the same as MoM:

Potency = (DMCC / (DMCC + TSCC)) * 100

is the casting cost (TSCC) of, say, Bless, the in-battle casting cost or the overland casting cost? If it's the former, then I suspect that spell-lock is resisting at its old 20 strength in-battle casting cost rather than the stated 150 strength, as (1 - 20/75)=73% is roughly about the rate I reported seeing spell-lock get stripped out in my fights from a presumably full strength dispelling wave.
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1a. Sorcery realm is designed to have a below average early game and a very strong late game. Casting skill boost is part of that. Playing multiple realms certainly helps in the early game department but risks not getting the Sorcery spells that win the game. (Dispelling Wave, Spell Blast, AEther Binding, Magic Immunity, Spell Binding, etc)
Astrologer is one of the best retorts in the game but the casting skill granted by it does not apply in combat so it only works for realms that focus on overland spells...which Sorcery actually is not until very late in the game. It doesn't even get an overland summon until rare, not counting the Nagas that get obsolete really fast. So as you say you have a lot of skill but what can you cast with it? More Uranus' Blessings or buffs on your units. It really only starts to pick up when you get Storm Giant (which is still medicore for a rare creature), Djinn or Sky Drake, until then you have to rely on whatever normal units you can buff. Of course that extra skill - the combat part - will serve well even in battles anyway, but that part is exactly what does not work with Astrologer.
1b. Kyrub added a procedure call to the game to recalculate all city income data during the human player's turns when no unit is left to move, in other when you can press the "Next Turn" button. I assume the limitation is there because that's when it matters most, since the income will be produced when you press the button. I'll see if there is any downside to enabling it at all times, I suspect it might be causing a slowdown. This might be the reason why the game feels laggy near the end with large empires now that I think about it. Anyway, until you enter the city or finish your turn, income data is not updated so the magic screen also shows the incorrect amounts. As for the amount of research, it's because you get the spell late and research is not that useful at that point. You have to research a very rare (Enlightenment itself) so it should provide enough bonus to pay to itself and be beneficial even afterwards, even when assuming you only have like 6-10 very rare spells left for research. After that point it does nothing for you unless you plan to go for Spell of Mastery which still takes a lot of time even if you have research from this. Originally it was half as much as it is now but that was not very useful due to the reasons above.
1c. " dispelling wave, which the description says is half-powered compared to dispel magic," ...it really says that. I forgot that feature but yes, it does do that.
Quote:and it stripped off 6 outta my 8 spell locks on units! In the next battle, at his fortress, I saved beforehand and ran an experiment - out of 10 fights, 2 of them saw 4 spell locks die on the first dispelling wave, four fights killed 5 locks, and the remaining four fights killed 6 locks.
That sounds really wrong. Either you had amazingly bad luck or something is broken somewhere. Or, the AI did have AEther Binding or Runemaster. Can I have this save file? I will investigate. Spell Lock should have a resistance of 150, which is like, 1/3 chance to lose it, not the 75% you describe.

Quote: which seems to ignore the presence of spell lock completely
Sounds like another bug, I'll check.

Quote: It also doesn't really give anything else to enhance a blue or white wizard's life.
Not true. It makes your global enchantments more resistant too which is a major thing for the Life realm. It does the same for city enchantments which benefits both Life and Sorcery extremely well. And finally you can make artifacts 25% cheaper and Sorcery+Life has by far the strongest options for artifacts and is the most efficient at using heroes in general.
And finally double dispelling power, Sorcery is the only realm that gets Dispelling Wave to really abuse that in combat.

anyway, I suspect a bug so I would like to investigate your saved game first before even thinking about if there are problems with balance. Dispel effectiveness is one place where bugs can easily remain hidden because you only see the end result and luck is involved in that.

2. Yes, Chaos is the other late game realm alongside Sorcery though in an entirely different way.

Quote:Follow question regarding dispelling: if the dispel formula is the same as MoM:

Potency = (DMCC / (DMCC + TSCC)) * 100
Yes it is the same. The correct cost is used, meaning if the Bless was cast in combat then the combat cost, otherwise the overland cost.

Quote:then I suspect that spell-lock is resisting at its old 20 strength in-battle casting cost rather than the stated 150 strength
That's entirely impossible because it is
-hardcoded to 150 as far as I remember
-It's no longer castable in combat so the combat cost is not in the spell data anymore.

There might be a bug but probably not this.

Edit : Checked a few things
-Spell lock is indeed set to a fixed 150.
-Saw no bug in spell locks dispel roll itself
-Thinking about it a bit more, a boosted dispelling wave at max is 25+100=125 power. If there was an AEther Binding then 250 vs 150 should have been enough to produce the described results (although it still seems pretty unlucky). I really hope it's not another bug where the AI pumps the slider over the maximum.
-I also see nothing wrong with the overland Spell Lock code. Are you sure you weren't hit by two Dispelling Waves in the same turn? It shouldn't bypass the Spell Lock.
...
-Found one bug! Combat Dispelling Wave's halved effectiveness is applied AFTER the dispelling is done not before. So it does absolutely nothing at that point. So those dispels were not halved. At halved strength the most you can get out of the spell is 62 dispelling power which is 29% chance to dispel each Spell Lock vs the unhalved 45%. After reading your numbers again I also realize I misread it and you had 52 of 80 spell locks taken which is 65%. Still, far more than the 45%. If they had ANY double disepl effect, that plus this bug puts the chance at 62%, which matches your experience. I still think that wizard has AEther Binding or Runemaster.
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I uploaded the fixed version, let me know if it works any better or not.
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Hey, thanks for the response, and congrats for finding the bug! Unfortunately, and my apologies for complaining without being able to provide any direct help - I don't have the save of the experiment anymore, as I typically just use a single save per game and save over it at the start and end of each play session. It seems like I have a save from a couple dozen turns prior to that, where it seems like I saved over the wrong file on accident, where Horus did have Aether Binding in play before I disjunctioned it (and proves that he did not have Runemaster!). I also have the save from right before I won. It doesn't sound as if either of these two are helpful to you though.

I'll download the new version and give sorcery another whirl using Runemaster... maybe combine it with Death or Chaos or something this time, we'll see!
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It's possible the opponent found a runemaster retort in a lair.
Also I think you might be casting too many buffs, especially if you know the wizard you're warring with can cast dispelling wave. IMO heroes are worth that many buffs, but on things like paladins or whatever I'll just use maybe 1or2 buffs.

Although the bug that made dispelling wave twice as powerful as it should've been was just literally unfair.
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(October 1st, 2016, 16:38)namad Wrote: Although the bug that made dispelling wave twice as powerful as it should've been was just literally unfair.

Fun fact, I forgot it was supposed to be halved soon after I added that change so I never noticed it is not halved properly because I wasn't expecting halved chance in the first place. This made me remember it indeed was my solution to it being far too good at dispelling stuff.
...on the other hand now that it works, spells like Magic Immunity or Regeneration are even more overpowered than ever. They are expensive so it takes a lot of dispelling power to get rid of them. Fortunately the AI also tries in overland now and it's only halved in combat.
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If a wizard found runemaster in a node or whatever, wouldn't that show up on his Mirror? If that's not the case, then maybe they did have secret Runemaster, but I kept checking their Mirrors pretty regularly in case of this.

Regarding buffing regular units: this can be really strong, actually, especially when you have blue/white and can stack a lotta good stuff up. Obviously I can't cast stuff on every paladin I have, but, for example, on the stack I used to take Horus' tower I had 4 heroes, with bless, holy weapon, holy armor, endurance, resist magic, spell lock, and then lionheart on one, flight on one, and focus magic on two others; and then I had 4 Paladins, two of which had bless+endurance+hw+ha+sl, and two others had all that plus flight and lionheart. Lionheart on Paladins, combined with those commons, make them real wrecking machines, easily comparable in strength to a Very Rare. There's also the fact that beyond unit enchantments, you don't really have a lot of worthwhile things to spend your skill/mana on... that whole casting Uranus Blessing to cast more Uranus' Blessings thing that Seravy was talking about.

That's why I was saying that limiting the number of enchantments per-unit somehow might be a good solution, because it's really only when you start stacking enchantments like that the strategy becomes excessively strong. You can't just balance each enchantment by itself, you gotta consider what other ones *might* stack up with it.

Regarding Runemaster: trying it out, the trait is a little better than I realized, as it also seems to work in Nodes, allowing mid-high strength combat enchantments to completely bypass the Node's natural counter-magic. Mid-level stuff like Reaper Slash seemed to get through (AFAIR) 100% ok and even Psionic Blast seemed to get through most of the time (in e.g. a chaos node). I unfortunately had only very tough nodes near me (Myrror start), so I couldn't make use of it in this game to snowball early like you can sometimes with Astrologer, but that's pretty nice to have. I still think that Runemaster is the weakest 2-value retort when comparing it to the others that cost two, as the bonus to arcane spells and research still feels completely worthless, but the dispel-related portion is probably too strong for a single retort.
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Quote:If a wizard found runemaster in a node or whatever, wouldn't that show up on his Mirror?
Yes it will.

Quote:That's why I was saying that limiting the number of enchantments per-unit somehow might be a good solution
Dispelling exists for this purpose, the more enchantments, the more dispels will be used, and the more damage those do per casting. Above a certain number, it becomes not longer viable as a tactic.
The only thing that breaks this is Spell Lock, which is why I'm not allowing it in combat. It's overpowered enough even without that.
Fortunately the AI knows how do dispel on the overland map now, which should keep this tactic in check, at least if there are Sorcery enemies around with Dispelling Wave.

If it still causes problems, we can nerf Spell Lock more as a last resort.
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Well dispels no doubt counter unit-enchantment stacking, but there still remain the two issues I had: beyond the early and mid game, then, without Spell Lock, it's almost pointless to try to use unit enchantments as the AI will immediately strip them from your units often before you even get one combat turn with the enchantment in place. The one use is as a way to metagame the AI behaivor so that they burn all their mana and skill points dispelling stuff that wasn't that important to you.

Anyways, I just wanted to bring this issue to your attention. It's your mod and it sounds like you've thought about it quite a bit.
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