Help RFS-81 learn Civ 4

[RFS-81]

Thanks, everyone!

And it's really cool that you've already identified that your workers are on the wrong tiles. That's excellent progress and it took me a long time to figure out how to get them to improve tiles correctly.

Don't overestimate me, I was actually referring to tiles being worked by my city. I think about it like: I click on the city screen and assign a worker from the city to that tile. Regarding the movement of my worker units, I don't really plan them much in advance at the moment.

My initial recommendation would have been to farm the rice, then the banana, then move to chop or road the forest south, then drop cottages on the floodplains, all while growing to size 5. If that's too much, sorry. Like everyone else I'm just so excited that someone else is playing this great game!

I wasn't even aware that I could do anything with the banana tile before having Calendar. So I need the plantation to get the food resource (and thus health bonus), but in the meantime, I can get the extra food from the farm?

I planted my second city and got my third settler out. I decided to pause here because I could use some help with choosing the next city location.

Looks good!  I like your second city location and your general focus; the worker/settler/garrison trifecta is generally what you want in the early days.

Ditto. Your second city is very strong.

It's grown up to size 3 in the meantime, and I just realized that floodplains give a health penalty, so its health cap is actually lower than its happy cap. I can connect wheat and rice soon-ish, that should deal with it.

Yep, plus as Haphazard mentioned you can power through the health cap for a bit, especially once you have the corn tile farmed and inside your borders.

Don't forget to try and improve food resources first! Based on the screenshot you provided, I would recommend starting a worker after the granary -- and concentrating your workers on improving the corn first.

That's almost finished, the worker is just hiding behind the warrior. Oh right, and we don't have 1UPT here, so stacking workers gets things done faster! Kinda forgot about that!

As my capital is bumping into the happy cap, I'm going to whip this one.

Works, but I would try to whip something that costs two population - that is, something with more than 30 hammers left to build.  An axe qualifies if you keep your first turn's production under 5 hammers; otherwise you might do better to whip a worker and build the axe while regrowing.

Quoted for emphasis. Slavery overflow is a very powerful mechanic that takes some time to learn (for instance, I just learned it last year!). A two pop whip is, in the early game, anything that has more than 31 hammers left in construction. You can hover over the slavery icon to see how many pop the whip will take.  

Mardoc's suggestion is a pretty good way to generate military quickly while also pushing expansion: you whip settlers and workers and regrow on infrastructure or military units.

That makes a lot of sense!

I'd say don't worry about flipping hamburg yet: just take advantage of it when you can snipe the city.

And let that beautiful pun go to waste? But yeah, probably not a good idea to go for style points yet.

About city placements, going up the river looks much better in terms of yields, but I've also seen the suggestion to blob around my starting location for defense, so I'm confused here. I didn't see any sea resources yet. Definitely not in the first ring, and for the second ring, I need a unit in the water.

[Mardoc]

I wasn't even aware that I could do anything with the banana tile before having Calendar. So I need the plantation to get the food resource (and thus health bonus), but in the meantime, I can get the extra food from the farm?

Yes...and similar things. You can put mines or cottages on resource tiles, too, or cities on resources. It's rare for the value to be higher than the actual resource-gathering improvement, but it's good for situations like this where you can't build plantations yet.

That makes a lot of sense!

Yep, it's not going to be long before you need advice from someone more-expert than me . That's at least a sophomore-level idea, not Intro to Civ anymore.

About city placements, going up the river looks much better in terms of yields, but I've also seen the suggestion to blob around my starting location for defense, so I'm confused here. I didn't see any sea resources yet. Definitely not in the first ring, and for the second ring, I need a unit in the water.

Realistically, you want both cities, and more besides. In MOO terms, I'm arguing to settle the Rich 30 world before the Steppe 80 world, not instead of.

I do think that this approach will cost more resources to defend than if you went strictly in a blob, but it also produces more resources. I'm implicitly assuming that you won't be in a serious war until the land runs out, which is usually the case. I'm picturing your early-game empire claiming pretty much everything from a line in the west approximately from the copper to the jungled iron, to Hamburg in the east, with cities grabbing all of that land - only the tundra is maybe not worth settling. That does look pretty much like a blob. It's just that you should grab the strongest sites first, and then fill in the rest from their production.

[Zalson]

I wasn't even aware that I could do anything with the banana tile before having Calendar. So I need the plantation to get the food resource (and thus health bonus), but in the meantime, I can get the extra food from the farm?

Yep. The yield is better on the plantation (+2F as opposed to +1 from a farm) than the farm but all legal improvements are available from the worker when you are sitting on the square. The benefit here was that you would get an extra food while researching additional techs.

I'd say don't worry about flipping hamburg yet: just take advantage of it when you can snipe the city.

And let that beautiful pun go to waste? But yeah, probably not a good idea to go for style points yet.

It is a blessing and a curse sometimes.   With this in mind: definitely go for style points. FLIP HAMBURG!

About city placements, going up the river looks much better in terms of yields, but I've also seen the suggestion to blob around my starting location for defense, so I'm confused here. I didn't see any sea resources yet. Definitely not in the first ring, and for the second ring, I need a unit in the water.

Well, you could try to do both?

I think the advice you've been given is sound but the most important rule in Civ is: it depends. Blobbing around your capital is complicated by the relative low quality of your land directly surrounding your cap: no river, low food, and too much jungle vs that river valley river, no jungle, flood plains. In multiplayer, you'd be very exposed with your third city so far from your capital -- but in multiplayer you'd also have burned Hamburg to the ground for such an aggressive placement. In single player and at Noble difficulty, you're probably fine with expanding up the valley like we are suggesting. The AI probably will not attack you: Freddy and Rameses are fairly peaceful.

As for seeing into the fog for a seafood resource, a unit that visits either one of those tiles will get you visibility of the fogged tiles so's you can know what to plant. Second ring ocean food can be prioritized more highly because of your Creative culture.

[Zalson]

Realistically, you want both cities, and more besides. In MOO terms, I'm arguing to settle the Rich 30 world before the Steppe 80 world, not instead of.

THIS.

[Mardoc]

I think the advice you've been given is sound but the most important rule in Civ is: it depends.

That's the bit I was forgetting to say, yes.  These are all rules of thumb, usually but not universally applicable.  

I do think that going as far as the copper is a stretch, and it's breaking a generally-good rule.  It's just that this particular case is an exception due to the wildly disparate land quality.  Given two equally-good sites, you would definitely prefer the site that made your empire more blobby.  And if the copper valley were even further north, so that your empire didn't even have contiguous borders when you claimed it, I wouldn't be in favor of it.  It's the combination of (much) better site with (a little) harder to defend that makes me end up with this advice.

Also, I would have had you settle Hamburg before the copper, if the AI didn't get there first.  For pretty much the blobby reason.

Which reminds me: if you take my advice, don't forget to build some military roads along the river to make it faster to redeploy your troops north or south as needed, and to work toward decent garrisons on both ends of your empire (including some 2-move units).  The river connects you for trade, which might make a road feel like wasted effort, but if you need it, you'll really need it.

[RFS-81]

Speaking of rivers, I got a river trade route going before having sailing tech - what's going on there? I'll get to building roads after I'm done with hooking up all the luxuries.

I got some more turns in, and I was really chafing against the happiness cap most of the time. My cities were just growing too fast. I learned the hard way to wait the whole ten turns for the whipping penalty to wear of. I've got a bunch of luxuries now, though.

Here's my third city, The Hague (or 's-Gravenhage, as the natives call it).

   

My fourth city is Rotterdam. The food yields are quite bad, and it's far away (I'm paying 4 gold in maintenance), but I figured that connecting two new luxuries would be worth it.

   

To connect the resources near that city, I decided to research hunting and then make a beeline towards monarchy. Conveniently, I picked up priesthood on the way, for another happy in the capital once it finishes the temple. I also should get a monastery going to spread my religion to my other cities! Monarchy is due in two turns, and with the hereditary rule civic from monarchy, I'll be able to increase happiness even more!

Here is my capital at the end of my last session:

   

I've explored the coast and found that there were two resources in coastal waters after all, but they can't both be reached by the same city. I could put one city on the river's mouth for the fish, and another one south of Hamburger. Other locations might be near the copper up the river, or the hill near the rice. Here's a picture of my other cities:

   

I've got a granary in every city, libraries in Amsterdam and Utrecht, and under construction in the other two. Though in Rotterdam, it will take approximately forever, I guess. I have two warriors, two chariots, and one axe.

And finally, the world map:

   

Oh and I also seem to remember that the city maintenance goes up enormously after you pass a certain number. How many should I plan for?

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

I just discovered this thread and love it, because I also have an unplayed copy of Civ IV that I don't know how to use.

[Dark Savant]

Speaking of rivers, I got a river trade route going before having sailing tech - what's going on there? I'll get to building roads after I'm done with hooking up all the luxuries.

I think you only need Sailing for trade if some part of the river is outside your territory. I'm sure you don't need any tech at all for river trade if the river is entirely within your territory (the edge of your territory counts).

[Mardoc]

Yikes, you keep going fast!

Here's my third city, The Hague (or 's-Gravenhage, as the natives call it).

Looks good .

My fourth city is Rotterdam. The food yields are quite bad, and it's far away (I'm paying 4 gold in maintenance), but I figured that connecting two new luxuries would be worth it.

It's a gamble, but if it pays off (if you have peace long enough) then yes, luxuries are quite valuable. It'll also be valuable to hedge out Egypt into going a different direction, assuming they do. How does the diplomatic situation look? Are they getting angry with you or are you in decent shape?

To connect the resources near that city, I decided to research hunting and then make a beeline towards monarchy. Conveniently, I picked up priesthood on the way, for another happy in the capital once it finishes the temple. I also should get a monastery going to spread my religion to my other cities! Monarchy is due in two turns, and with the hereditary rule civic from monarchy, I'll be able to increase happiness even more!

You might consider grabbing Monotheism, so that you can pair your revolt to Hereditary Rule with a revolt to Organized Religion. OR is handy for saving on monasteries, and also for the bonus production toward buildings.

If your neighbors don't have a religion yet, I would strongly consider spreading yours to them, as well. that makes it much more likely that you can stay at peace if you want to.

I've explored the coast and found that there were two resources in coastal waters after all, but they can't both be reached by the same city.

That's actually probably a good thing. One resource per city is often enough; being able to split them up means you can feed two separate cities, to work more other tiles.

I've got a granary in every city, libraries in Amsterdam and Utrecht, and under construction in the other two. Though in Rotterdam, it will take approximately forever, I guess. I have two warriors, two chariots, and one axe.

I think you've probably built your libraries a bit early; I personally would have waited until you'd finished filling out your land. But they're good buildings anyway.

Oh and I also seem to remember that the city maintenance goes up enormously after you pass a certain number. How many should I plan for?

City maintenance grows in a smooth-ish curve. The main complication is that each city adds cost to not only itself, but to all your existing cities, up to a cap. I can't remember the exact details - but basically, just watch your gold income before and after settling each city, and pause when your income goes too low. I would worry when you have to run the slider below about 30% research/70% gold. As you grow your cities and cottages and add infrastructure, you'll add enough income to resume expansion. Also, when you hit this point, if you research Code of Laws and build Courthouses, that will rescue you too.

I suspect that you will run out of land before your maintenance gets too high, and your general instincts about investing in infrastructure are likely to prevent you from ever crashing. The way people usually manage to totally crash an economy is to conquer someone. It's hard to stop after each city and reevaluate, especially since conquered cities don't pay maintenance until they come out of anarchy, at which point you're hopefully much deeper into enemy territory. Plus, after you've destroyed the standing army, it's hard to be willing to stop conquering.... But that tends to only happen to people who play very aggressively and neglect to build cottages/trade routes/etc. Or to people who play on the highest difficulty settings.

[Mardoc]

One more thing:

I have two warriors, two chariots, and one axe.

How does your Power compare to your neighbors? You can view it on the Demographics screen, which you open by clicking the button with the graph on it in the upper right. You want to be approximately keeping up with them, so that you can choose whether to go to war. This is pretty light, and you're starting to get to a point where that might matter. But only if your neighbors are building military and unhappy with you. If they don't have military either, then you needn't worry yet.